Balancing family life and a demanding legal career requires more than ambition; it calls for learning how to set boundaries in a law career that protects time, energy, and values. Terri Wagner Cammarano, Chief Legal Officer at Cedars-Sinai, built her path from law firm partner to the C-suite while raising children, and she speaks candidly about the strategies that made it possible. She describes how she learned to say no without sacrificing opportunities, how she reshaped her leadership style to support other women lawyers, and why mentorship matters at every stage. Terri also shares mistakes she made along the way and the practical habits that help her stay grounded. This conversation offers mothers in law a clear, relatable roadmap for advancing their careers while preserving balance and authenticity.
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Finding Balance: Setting Boundaries In A Law Career With Terri Wagner Cammarano
Balancing A Powerhouse Legal Career & Motherhood: Early Challenges & Support
We have a very special guest, Terri Cammarano. She’s the Chief Legal Officer at Cedars-Sinai and a very long-time friend and someone that I have looked up to. She is an icon in the healthcare lawyer leaders space and has a wealth of knowledge, has witnessed so many women on their motherhood lawyer journey and has so much wisdom and insight to share. Thank you, Terri, for joining us.
I am humbled by that introduction because I have been lifted up by a lot of women and men along the way. Just look at what you’ve done with your career. You inspire me.
That is very humbling because I remember very clearly, I met Terri many years ago. You’re one of the very strong successful women at Foley & Lardner, and you immediately gave me an opportunity to support a nonprofit, this little school in Pasadena. You sent me on my way to help structure a board meeting and I had no idea what I was supposed to do. You held my hand and then let me go alone.
I was like, “Who is this person?” I felt so supported at such an early period of my career when that kind of support is so impactful. I love that you immediately credit others who’ve lifted you up and supported you, men and women. What did they do? How did they lead you to become the leader and the lawyer that you are now?
I think part of it was just being transparent about what they saw my strengths were and my weaknesses and being bold in saying, “That’s just not your thing. Instead of trying to be good at everything, focus on what you are actually good at and play to that strength.” Us Type A personalities want to have it all do it all, be it all. I ended up not going into litigation because that’s not my thing. I don’t have the patience for the chess game. Mentors and partners in law firms were really good about telling me that. Learning over the years not to be defensive about that and accept it and thinking, “What can I do with this constructive information?”
The A-type personality thing is what we often struggle with as mothers in that space. You’ve had a powerhouse career. You started at O’Melveny. You worked hard in law school, had multiple jobs and supported yourself. One of the things that is so incredible about your work ethic is I see it coming in a lot earlier than the rest of us probably figured it out. You had an extra special early onset experience with that. When you went into the law firm and you have that perfectionism, at what point did kids show up to make that experience either more robust, difficult, or probably joyful, also all at once?
My husband and I are both practicing lawyers and we married late in the game by most standards. My husband was 40 when we married, and I’m a little younger than that. I think we had already gotten through the rough part of feeling like you have to prove yourself. I was up for partner of the year I was pregnant with my first child.
I remember Kim Wardlaw, who was a partner at O’Melveny and was then appointed to the bench. I ran into her while I was pregnant somewhere in Pasadena. She knew I was with Foley by then. We talked. We’d worked on a big project together at O’Melveny, and she was asking how I was doing, and I said, “I’m up for partner, but as you can see, I don’t know.”
She looked at me, she said, “Girlfriend, that’s actually going to give you a leg up,” because that was a time when we were starting to feel we can’t discriminate on against women based on the fact that they’re having children. My sister, who’s eleven years older than I am interviewed with a major law firm in town when she graduated from law school. The third question from this very prominent law firm was, “Do you plan to have a family?” Things have changed. Sometimes we forget that.
Overcoming Insecurity & Finding Balance As A Working Mom
It’s really important to remember because I think you can lose sight of that. Even looking at what’s changed in the last few years, but definitely at that time, it looked like such a struggle from the outside. I remember your kids on Sundays being in the office. The rest of us didn’t have families and we’re still trying to catch up, but like to be there and trying to navigate that space. One of the traits, and I did have a chance to like circle with others that get to work with you and your positive presence even in that. I remember that. Is that something that you’ve been able to carry through? What allows you to do that? I feel like there’s some secret in there.
I don’t know if it’s a positive outlook or just really resign to there are things you can’t change and things you can change. Every day, you get up and you make choices. What’s the priority today and how am I going to make it work? You can either do that being grumpy or you can do that. We all get grumpy. I get grumpy. My team knows when I’m in a mood, but even when you’re grumpy, trying to have fun with it and acknowledge it. “I’m in a mood, folks, so watch out if I say something that offends you.”
Going back to the transparency aspect of your personality, I think it really served because it does create connection to allow people to not be positive all the time. Another phrase that was used to describe you is your endless enthusiasm. I want to know where that comes from, especially being a lawyer and a mom. Is that something that’s present on both sides of your life or is it something that’s predominantly your passion for healthcare? I know your level of commitment to healthcare is what I’m more familiar with, but how has that translated with your balancing of motherhood and that enthusiasm towards it?
It’s coming from a lower-middle-class family that didn’t think I was smart enough to go to law school, gave me no financial support, not that they had any to give. I love my family and they have a lot of good qualities, but they just, plain and simple, didn’t get it. Part of it is just me being stubborn and wanting to prove them wrong and being positive about the fact that I can do it even when it may seem unrealistic.
I love that. Stubbornness serves us. That is one common characteristic of a lot of the women that I’ve had the pleasure of speaking with as part of this project. That underlying quality drives a lot of our success. I think it really does. When you look back at that period of time when you were first a mom and speaking to readers that are in that space of you had kids relatively close together and it’s a lot, especially when you were a partner. Early in your partner years with young kids, I know you said establish the priority of the day and pursue that, but there seems like there’s so many different priorities. How did you get through those days?
It’s tough because I think one of the things that I dealt with a lot was just insecurity. Am I a good mother? Am I paying enough attention to my marriage? My clothes don’t fit anymore. Looking back, some of that I handled, some of it I didn’t handle so well. I wish I hadn’t spent so much time worrying about stuff like that.
My clothes didn’t fit and I didn’t look polished all the time, but no one really cared except me and maybe one of the caddy secretaries who wanted to gossip about, “Terri is looking sloppy.” No one really cares. Nobody would judge guys on that. Nobody judges men who come into the office after being up all night with a sick child. Nobody judges them. I needed to get over that and I wish I had gotten over that sooner.
Instead of trying to be good at everything, focus on your strengths and play to them. Share on XIt’s a hard mental trick, though, because it does feel like the standards are different and what weighs on us is different. I think it’s really interesting that you’re in a relationship, a marriage with another lawyer. I didn’t go that route. I married a teacher. Every once in a while, I think, “Would it have been easier if both of us were in the same awareness?” Has that been an advantage to your marriage, to how you’re raising your kids to have another lawyer with those same skills, the logistical and the managing details?
Yeah. I think critical thinking helps. We don’t have very many big, passionate fights. Instead, we cross-examine each other and that’s not healthy.
It’s worked. I think one of my favorite things you ever said to me, I have a lot of good Terri comments, but I think you had just finished a house project and I was at the beginning of ours and you said, “We got through without counseling.” I thought that is a great standard.
We did. I insisted that we put a bucket of money aside for marriage counseling because I was concerned about that. I just had a really good partner. I understand when he says, “I’ve got a trial coming up, I’m not available.” He would understand when I would say, “I’ve got a closing coming up and I’m not going to be available or a regulatory hearing or something.” That part of it helps a lot.
I think just being able to share part of our work life with each other. I’m not a litigator, and he’s a maritime lawyer, deep into international law and insurance. Once in a while, I’ll call him and I’m like, “I was on the phone with our coverage counsel and they said this, and I don’t know what the hell they were talking about. Can you walk me through it?” We’ll have a glass of wine and he’ll call me and say, “They’re telling me they can’t give me this because of HIPAA. Can you walk me through?” That’s fun. He’s definitely been involved with the kids. I’ve never felt like I carried the burden with the kids.
I remember having dinner with one of my former Foley partners at his house with his wife. They were both working. At one point she pulled me aside and said, “How do you guys do it? How do you make sure everything is 50/50?” We talked for a little bit. Driving home, I said to my husband, “That marriage is doomed.” Sure enough, six months later, they filed for divorce. It doesn’t work that way. It’s not transactional. You just both go all in and do what needs to be done and you’re vocal and communicative about what you can’t do.
Raising Independent Kids: Life Lessons From Lawyer Parents
It’s amazing because I do think that hope or desire, there’s actually a book that was written called Fair Play and it attempts to approach where there’s this division of labor, especially if you have working individuals because as you mentioned, like someone has this, someone has that. There are just times when you’re probably doing 100%, but there are also times when you can only do 30%. What I’ve noticed, and in some of it, I feel like certain couples do it better than others, but how to have the conversations and at what time do you have them?
I think I had them way too late because the kids started coming, they didn’t stop coming. Honestly, I don’t even know where the last few years really went. I think if I was starting out fresh, acknowledging that it’s not 50/50, acknowledging how you can show up for each other in a way that works for both of you would’ve been a helpful tactic.
Your kids are grown and so successful and the pride that flows from all they’ve accomplished. Honestly, I think witnessing your work ethic had to be a critical component of what’s enabled them to be successful. What was your experience raising them, even like the teenage years with a lawyer mom? Was there an advantage? Was it difficult? What was your experience like in that space?
Our kids are pretty independent because they had to be. We had to teach them early on that sometimes we’re just not going to be available and you have to use good judgment. You asked about being lawyers. I had a client when my kids were probably in elementary school that had a big national operation and acquired their first site in Hawaii. We were at an event and all their outside counsel were there and everybody was saying, “Do your work in Hawaii.”
The salty old general counsel said, “Not a damn one of you is licensed there.” Stupid me says I’ll get licensed there. I came home, I told my husband, I said, “We ought to get licensed in Hawaii.” He’s like, ‘I’m already licensed in New York and California. I’m not taking another bar exam.” I said, “We have kids and someday, if we had a place in Hawaii when they’re married and have families, they’re not going to their in-law’s house. They’re coming to our house.” The next day he’s like, “Okay, I’ll do it.” That’s what we did for our fifteenth wedding anniversary.
How did we study for it? We were both way out. He knows evidence. I don’t know evidence. He forgot everything he ever learned about the UCC. We got the BARBRI tapes back in those days. Do you remember tapes? We got them and we played them in the car everywhere we went. The kids heard them all. My kids, know their Miranda rights. They know the basic elements of contract. They can still recite stuff. It’s hilarious. They just listened to this with us. My apologies to them for that. My daughter read her lease thoroughly and came to us and said, “I don’t like this provision. Is this something I should push back on?” There are advantages to having lawyer moms like that.
Another thing I remember is we always had help. Our help always had to drive. We always paid for driving lessons to make sure they were safe, put them in on our insurance. There was a time when we were in transition and there were no driver and our kids were active in sports. Back in those days, there was no Uber or Lyft. We live in Palos Verdes. We took them down to Torrance to a shopping center. We said, “Here’s the number of a cab company.”
We had prepped him and told them how to do it. We’re like, “Call a cab and get home,” and we drove off. They each had to take a separate cab and they did. We knew then that if we were ever without a driver, they could find their way home. I could probably get reported to child services if I did that but they were preteens, so they were old enough. I walked to kindergarten.
Could you imagine seeing a five-year-old walking like a mile and a half with no parent? I would get there late every day because I would talk to all the neighbors and my mom would get called, “Your daughter’s not here.” She’s like, “She’ll be there.” I think it instilled a certain level of independence that no matter where they go in life, they can find a way home. Now that it’s so much easier. I laugh because our we’re lived by the water. My son said to me once, “Do you want to know what happened today?” I work and he was twelve and I’m sure Child Protective Services might call me next, but he’s on his own.
He knows how to cook himself a lunch or breakfast. He’s like, “We were on a motorboat with his friends and the engine died.” I’m like, “You’re home safe.” I think the experience of that flexes their muscles a little bit more, which I think is becoming less and less common in an Uber world or you can just have a nap and call. I love those life lessons. What are their memories of growing up? Both parents had big jobs and especially a mom who was working so hard. Did they ever share about what that was like for them?
They definitely said, “We noticed there were times you guys weren’t around.” It was the nanny or the au pair. They’ve been honest about that. I think part of that I could have mitigated by not having a long commute. I had well over an hour commute each way and that was without traffic. I look back and I regret not doing something. I’m not sure what we would’ve done because where my husband works and where I work. We wanted to stay in Palos Verdes. Looking back, we might have looked at that differently because I think that ate up time that I could have had with them.
They both got to college and said, “These people don’t know how to do their laundry.” There was stuff out in the real world. They were surprised by that because they had to do all that stuff. Once in a while, when they’re struggling as young professionals do, I get the, “You guys set a high bar for us.” It’s like, “That’s not fair. This is not about us. This is about you and what you’re comfortable with.” I do think that now we have more conversations about setting boundaries because that was something that I think my generation was of women was not good at setting boundaries. I’m better at it now, but that’s only because I’m older and I don’t have Imposter Syndrome like I did as a young lawyer.
Something my generation of women was not good at: setting boundaries. Share on XThe Power Of “No”: Setting Boundaries For Work-Life Integration
I think that’s hard. One of the pieces of that puzzle that’s triggering from what you just shared was, as women, we want to do it all. As moms, you want to say yes and take on more and do the things. One of the things, and I don’t know if it’s because you’ve gone through it more, but your advice and wisdom around managing what’s a reasonable expectation given all the other things that parents need to do to care for their kids and honoring that season. I know even looking back with your commute, for example, because I have those things. Every mom has those things when I’m like, “I could have done that differently and been more present.”
I also think for you, as you said, you wouldn’t have had that downtime to transition. There’s value in all of it, but I think when you look back and you know how you support other women who are in that season, what do you think they can do differently to set it up with their supervisor? Not everyone is like you, quite honestly, and have that awareness, I guess, or reality of, “You think you’re going to do this? Actually let’s set it up this way because it’s more reasonable, given that you have five children or whatever.” What leads you into navigating those conversations and how would you advise young lawyer moms to come to their supervisor and just say, “This might not be working out.”
I think that’s a good question because I didn’t do a good job at that one. After my second was born, between the commute having two children at home, my husband was very busy with his practice, and I was struggling to make my hours requirement. Thankfully, the managing partner walked into my office one day and said, “Have you ever thought about reducing your hours?” It hadn’t even occurred to me to ask, because I thought asking would be admitting defeat or failure. I am so grateful that he did that because it was easy. We cut a deal. It just took some of the pressure off. Learning to ask and not being afraid of no because if they say no, they’re not going to fire you.
I think there’s sometimes that fear. I also love for all those people out there who are watching and witnessing a parent trying to manage this to step in. What a gift that was because I feel the same way. That same thing happened to me when I was struggling to get pregnant. My boss came in and said, “Maybe this three hour commute’s not helping you get pregnant.” I’m like, “It might not be, but can we work it out?” We worked something out? I do think I would never have asked. As much as I encourage everyone to ask, because you’re right, the worst thing is they say no. Another side of that is to offer. I think the fact that you have your eyes on people and seeing them is like a gift for the people that work with you.
I hope so because the whole, “You’ve got to be in the office 50 hours a week,” I don’t buy it. I just don’t buy it. COVID proved that you don’t need it. I have attorneys on my team who don’t want to be at home working. They’re like, “I want to be away from my kids. I want to be in the office. I like the routine,” and that’s fine. There are other people who are more productive at home because they’re not getting interrupted. Obviously, facetime is important. We have to make commitments around that. I think young parents now are in a great place to ask because we’ve learned through COVID that there are options. We have proof of it.
Learn to ask and not be afraid of “no.” Share on XGoing back to your comments about the changes that have happened, because even before COVID, when I was trying to navigate after having my first to avoid the three-hour commute to Pasadena from Orange County and offered, “Can I work from home just two days a week?” It was a no because that was not the norm. It’s opened up a lot of opportunities.
I think it’s also created some additional chaos for parents when they’re trying to be at home and you’re there, but you’re not there. That’s hard to manage as well. Going back to the boundary conversation and figuring out that for people, it makes a big difference. I think you’re such an example of how to do it right in many ways.
Empowering The Next Generation: Terri’s Leadership & Mentorship Philosophy
The one other thing, how you bring people up and have definitely supported even mothers, women to come into the room when you’re having important conversations. That is really something that was highlighted to me as something that even people that have worked for you for a long time, it still surprises them and it fills them when you bring them in and say we. It really impressed me. The way that was so authentically shared is significant to people? Why do you do that?
It’s very unique and I think some people, men, women, maybe it’s a bit of a gender thing, I think you’re so confident this is my assessment of why Terri might do that. I’d love to hear from you, what started you or did someone else do that for you? It has a huge impact on the people that work with you.
I really like the people I work with. I always. You always have 1 or 2 that you don’t love, but I also want to leave every place I’ve been better than it was when I got there. I don’t want people to be dependent on me. If I win the lottery and decide to move to Bermuda tomorrow, I want things to go on and I want my clients to look at my team and say, “Any one of them could do her job.”
I don’t want to be that indispensable. It puts too much pressure on me. It doesn’t give people the opportunity and especially in a general counsel role, not a lot of them out there. When I hear of a great opportunity where someone, friend of a friend, that’s how you get these jobs, and a lot of people told me that when I was ready to go in-house. That’s not right.
I don't want to be that indispensable. It puts too much pressure on me and doesn't give people the opportunity in a general counsel role. Share on XThese are people who walked away from law firms. They gave up the potential upside income, which becomes significant over the years. Especially in healthcare, they’re still working 24/7, because we operate 24/7. We need to give them pathways forward and pathways up and opportunities within the organization so that they feel like they still have a good opportunity to progress, an upward ladder somewhere in the organization. It doesn’t even have to be my job, but I want them to have the exposure to the management team. Often, the general counsel is the only one that goes to board meetings is the only one that you know. No, you don’t need me for everything.
It’s amazing. It is a differentiator of you, especially as a woman, but even just as a badass attorney, that’s a great path. That’s a great thing we can all do for each other. I think it does though imbue from your confidence and willingness to bring others in the fold. There’s a security that comes with bringing other people in.
That is nice to hear you say. Part of it is I don’t want to be the only person people go to, especially because I don’t know everything. It’s a waste of my time to just translate from the strategy officer to the subject matter expert. I don’t have time for that.
That’s another awesome aspect of why that works. I do think it’s seen as such a big deal for succession planning or however else it’s being interpreted, but just to be part of that at any age in your career. The other thing I love about your career is you have been at these big firms, gone in-house and really have the gamut of different environments at different levels. When you look back is the most family friendly, which one would you say?
I’ve even been with a small firm and my husband’s firm is a boutique firm. I think small firms can be really hard because you’re it. You don’t have people to hand stuff off to. Unless you’re really good at setting boundaries and being able to say, “I’m not going to take on that new matter,” or, “I’m going to increase my rates a little bit,” and get less work, you have to be strategic because there’s not a big team behind you that can step in.
My husband has always had just himself and a few attorneys. When something big is going on and we’re traveling, he’s got to stay connected to the office or get someone to backfill. I think small firms have their challenges if you don’t have a personality that can say no. That can be comfortable with, “This year, I’m going to take on less work and try to deal with it through increasing my rates.”
I think big firms are better than they used to be when you and I were young lawyers because you do have a team and you can hand off. I think it gets harder when you’re a partner because if you’ve got an eat what you kill firm, then your partners may want not want to take it unless you’re going to hand over billing credits. I think it depends on the firm.
How do you find out if the firm’s eat what you kill? From just word-of-mouth perspective. That’s a really important question for people choosing. Maybe that’s the right interview question. What happens when my family has this really important scheduled vacation and I need to be completely out?
Still to this day, I would struggle to ask that question. Even at this level. Even 25 years in, I think I would pause because it might suggest I’m not committed enough. I also would love them to have an answer that values that everyone needs to take time away. It’s good for your brain and strategic processing and you come back better. All the reasons we know why, but I don’t know if someone would feel comfortable asking, but I love that idea.
I think just asking around to people who have been at a couple of firms or people like me who has relationships with most of the major healthcare providers. Some do it better than others. Some have compensation models that reward sharing clients. I think those are going to make it easier. I think in-house, it depends on the industry. Healthcare, retail, hospitality, all operate 24/7. Transportation, 24/7. In recent years, I don’t think it’s ever been like it used to be where going in-house, you just manage outside counsel because there are budget constraints.
I think with in-house, it can be workable, again, if you’re just doing a good job of delegating, if you’re someone who can delegate and you’re someone who can share. The beauty of being in-house is that you can share without any of that concern over, “Can I bill for this? Is this part of my I know finding fee?” I think that helps you pay a price for it. I’m watching some of my friends now who are retiring from the big national law firms. They were in my class and it’s like, “How come you get to retire?” Yeah, that’s right. You’ve been paid the big for quite a long time.” I can’t complain about my compensation, but relative to theirs, it is a different path.
That’s where people come to me and ask me like, “What kind of job should I get from the big firm?” Part of me recognizes the financial benefits of staying. I always say, “If you can go find some equity somewhere and an in-house job, that’s another avenue that might support an earlier retirement, but it might not. That’s still a risk.” Of course, I think it’s more of a mission-centric question for people that go in-house. There’s something different that’s fulfilling us that maybe is not monetarily based all the time to connect to what’s happening and the why of it.
Navigating Parental Judgment: Support & Understanding For Working Mothers
There are so many aspects of it, but as a parent, I think it’s a really great thought process to evaluate the big firm, small firm, in-house to discern those questions because I do think you’re right, every place can be so different. You could be in an awesome in-house position or an awesome law firm position that’s really figured it out. Looking back, what would you say was the hardest part of being a parent and being in the legal field? I know we talked about perfectionism. Did that ever put a struggle on the way you approached motherhood?
I think it did. You and I have talked about this offline, but we are fortunate and blessed. We live in upper-middle-class communities and there are a lot of mothers who don’t have the jobs we have. There can be judgment with that. I really value a couple of women that I grew up with who were in my neighborhood and didn’t work and didn’t treat me like that. In fact, they offered to help.
One mother said, “I know you work. Your daughter lives down the street from me. I’ll take her to Girl Scouts, so you don’t have to worry about it.” I would do anything for that woman now if she called me. There was also one woman who told me, “Maybe you shouldn’t join our Girl Scout troop because you work and most of us don’t.”
Those moments you carry. I remember a woman was working at a professional real estate and she quit. I said, “How’s it going?” Not that I was considering it for myself. She’s like, “I just didn’t realize how much I was ignoring my child by being a working parent.” It was said in a way that it made me feel like she was suggesting that I’m ignoring my children because I work. It took me a few days to get over that comment, but I still remember it. It was many years ago. I think for the non-working moms out there, being helpers, you will never find a more grateful person to pay back, pay it forward however than a working parent.
I will bake pies until I can’t bake pies for people that will take my children places. It’s hard to do it all and we appreciate that. I just hope that anyone reading that is asking people to for rides or driving kids around, we appreciate it. Everyone has some grief of their choices. We all do and we can share it instead of judge each other for it. I think that’s also a tricky aspect.
With those experiences, because they do sting, are there anywhere your kids shared a concern about that you weren’t there like a moment that was a struggle for them that you were able to help them understand what you’re doing in the world? I look at your career, they knew and maybe they’re like, “My kids are a little young. All they know is I’m not there. They don’t always know what I’m doing.”
When they’re young, it’s hard to explain what a lawyer does. A friend of mine asked me to talk to her niece’s Girl Scout group. It was around the time of Ruth Bader Ginsburg’s passing. They said they were going to do something about lawyers. It took me a while to explain what we do to a group of elementary school kids.
I don’t think my kids really understood it until about high school. They didn’t really care then because they were off doing their own thing, as high schoolers do. They get it now. They understand it now. I think in the college years, colleges are big on networking now and a lot more focused on career planning. That’s when they started to recognize the names of my husband’s clients. They started to recognize the name of my law firm and the consulting firms that I had worked with over the years like, “That’s a player.”
They appreciate it now. I don’t think in the moment they care whether you’re a doctor, a lawyer or a biology teacher. They just know you’re not there. I think part of it is just making the time good when you have it. That doesn’t mean not doing the normal parenting and being a disciplinarian when you need to, but just making sure that you’re 100% there. Learning not to pick up the phone. I had to discipline myself back in the days of the Blackberry that we used to call Crackberries.
Saturday morning, I’m putting it down. There’s nothing more important right now. I’m putting it someplace else so that I could just be 100% there with my family, my husband and my kids. The same when we travel. We really try to disconnect and it’s funny, I see it with both my kids. They’re on their phones a lot, even as young adults. It’s like, “We paid for this trip. Put it down. I didn’t come here to see your phone.”
We’re giving them all of it. One of the differentiators I’ve noticed is that a lot of times, when you’re with them 24/7, then that is your job, that your primary role. There’s less connectivity sometimes. Our nanny, a long time ago said, “I’ve never seen a mom spend more time with their kids that also works.” It’s not that I’m spending a lot of time. It’s just when I’m with them, I was zoned in 100%. It is a discipline with these phones. I bring a deck of cards to restaurants.
One of my kids has a phone. I’m like, “I’m not doing this.” It does help. “I’m thinking of other things to do with our hands, honestly, because it’s a distraction but it also disconnects us. I think those are the things that probably make it harder to raise kids right now. At least twenty-plus-year-old kids will listen to you still, which is also pretty awesome.
Another thing we did is when our kids were in junior high and high school and they’d get the reading assignments, we’d get the books on tape, because my kids were playing sports. Travel sports. We were driving a lot. We would listen to the book in the car so we could talk about it. My daughter’s an avid reader. My son doesn’t love reading but he really liked the books on tape because auditory is better for him than visual learning. That turned out to be fun because we ended up reading every book they read.
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That’s a connection point they’ll probably remember as you go back and where you were when you were listening to those stories. That’s a great idea. What do you think has given you the most fulfillment when you look back at your journey being a mom and being an attorney?
My kids are my joy. My husband has definitely given me the most. They’ve been so supportive and I remember coming home and saying, “I’m going to leave Foley & Lardner, a big national law firm with a really nice income, and take a huge pay cut to go in-house at my first general counsel job.” My husband didn’t bat an eye. He’s like, “We’ll figure it out. If that’s really what you want, we’ll figure it out.” That turned out to be a good move family-wise because the commute was not a lot less, but different and more flexible. I can’t remember who said it, but someone said one of the most important decisions you make about your career is picking a good partner. It’s so true. Along the way, not forgetting to nurture that relationship as much.
One of the most important decisions you make about your career is picking a good partner. Share on XThat is a trick, too. I love when you share about that, but any tricks about that, because I feel like it can be a hard place to put tension and energy. How did you structure that? People talk about date nights, we suck at those, but what are things that have worked to help connect?
I’m not great at this. We’ve had our struggles like every marriage does, but I think one of the mistakes I made was getting so wrapped up in trying to do it all and then wanting my husband to say, “You’re amazing. You do it all.” He was doing it all too. Being so wrapped up in your woe is me, this is hard stuff. We’re both doing hard stuff. I wish we had had more dialogue about we’re both doing hard things. This is really hard and we don’t have to say out loud how much we appreciate that we’re, but we do appreciate that each other is doing hard stuff and trying to balance a lot of responsibilities.
I love that. That’s very powerful because I definitely admit to that exact same thing. Feeling in thought and I think you’re right. Everyone’s doing what they can because it is a lot. Some quote I heard once was like, “97% of marriages experience like a downfall because of this,” and it’s child raising. It’s very hard. I feel like with type A personalities, people that are all in and trying to set it up so that it’s seamless, but it’s imperfect. It’s wonderfully imperfect. I think the places where I’ve failed have born opportunities for independence for my kids. In the end, that’s great. From everyone else looking in, I might be perceived as irresponsible.
Building Strong Family Bonds: Tips For Mother-In-Law Relationships & Beyond
I accept that now because I do see there’s positive coming. You have a son living abroad and has a very amazing career. If he was less independent, that may never have come to fruition. That’s a bold move. I feel like there’s pride in that, in the way you did it. I do want to ask you my favorite question about the relationship you have with your mother-in-law. If you have any tips or tricks for us out there who find ourselves two women loving the same man. It’s not always easy. Can you share anything that’s worked well to have a successful relationship with your mother-in-law?
I adore my mother-in-law. She’s living independently. She is gorgeous inside and out. We’ve always had a good relationship. I think one reason is because she has three daughters and I saw that she didn’t have a lot of girly stuff in common with them. She and I, we both love antiques. We both love fabric and sewing and things like that. I wanted to be her daughter for that purpose.
I think with the dynamic of both of you loving the same man, it took me a while to figure this out, but I realized if I’m going to have a relationship with her, I can’t end run my husband. He needs to be aware. If I’m going to make plans with her, I want my husband to know. If she contacts me about, “Is my son okay? He said this and they’re having a little usual mother-son situation. I need to be let him know that I’m on his side first and not just respond without checking in with him about what’s going on before I get sucked into the drama. That is because it’s his drama, not mine. I just love her and that’s awesome. My mother has been gone for over 25 years and so it’s been fun to have someone in your life that can be that figure for me.
We make a choice every day to work, so resenting it because it interferes with your personal life isn't fair. Share on XThank you for sharing. Any last words of wisdom that you might convey to a young lawyer mom? You’ve had such a wealth of experience and knowledge.
I think, again, just learning to say no. It’s okay to say no. You don’t have to sit on a board or do volunteer work. What’s going to happen if you do that because now and this week you can’t handle it? Nothing. No one’s going to remember after next week. I think the other thing is we are all blessed with a profession that pays us well. It may not always pay us what we want it to pay, I guess we could have been investment bankers, but we make a choice every day to work.
Resenting the work because it’s interfering with your personal life isn’t really fair when you make that choice every day. You also get to make the choice of we may not be able to buy a house in the next few years, but I’m going to get the help I need. I’m going to have the help I need if I don’t want to shop for groceries and have them delivered, because that’s twenty more minutes that I get to spend with my kids without being distracted by whether or not we need flour or salt, I’m going to pay for that. In the big scheme of things, buying your time back by being willing to engage the help you need and not feeling guilty about, “If I do this, we may not get to go to Hawaii or Europe next year.” So what? You’ll get there.
It’s a hard choice to make, but I think knowing others have made that and don’t regret it, especially because it’s such a short season, when these kids are here and present and in your house, I feel like savoring the time makes so much sense. That’s great advice. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for being on this show. You are one of my favorite humans and have definitely been an inspiration not just to me, but to a lot of other people as well. I really appreciate you making the effort to be part of this experience.
My pleasure. I think this is a great thing that you’re doing. I just really respect that you’ve been able to pull this concept into something that I think fills a void.
Thank you. It’s been a lot of fun chatting. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
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About Terri Wagner Cammarano
Terri Wagner Cammarano is the General Counsel at Cedars-Sinai, where she advises the systems’ Boards and senior management on complex legal and regulatory matters while overseeing the entire Legal Affairs Department.
With a JD and LLM (tax) from Loyola Law School, Cammarano has gained invaluable expertise during her tenure practicing healthcare law both private practice and serving executive roles at major Southern California health systems.
Terri similarly excels as an amazing mentor to many lawyers and finds joy in sharing her lessons learned as a working mom attorney with mothers navigating their journey. Terri also has amazing credentials as an awesome wife and an avid adventure traveler, road cyclist, open water swimmer, and freediver.
