Balancing motherhood and a professional career is indeed an overwhelming duty. Mothers often feel guilt over their shortcomings to their children, and it often puts their mental health at risk. But with the proper support and the right mindset, they can make this demanding task more manageable and meaningful. For the podcast’s inaugural episode, Carrie Fogliani sits down with Jeannine Taylor, Deputy General Counsel for Keck Medicine of the University of Southern California, who shares how she balances a legal career and her many responsibilities as a mother. She offers valuable insights into overcoming her biggest professional challenges by tapping into her own village and embracing the “get to” approach. This conversation is for every mom out there who wants to achieve both professional success and personal fulfillment.
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Watch the episode here
Listen to the podcast here
Finding Your Village & Getting Over Guilt With The “Get To” Approach With Jeannine Taylor 👯♀️
This is Carrie Fogliani from the Mothers in Law podcast. It is with incredible joy and enthusiasm that I welcome Jeannine Taylor to the show to kick off what we hope will be incredible insights and guidance for those working moms, especially those working lawyers out there who are trying to balance motherhood along with being amazing attorneys.
We are blessed that Jeannine agreed to come on our inaugural podcast to talk through some of the things that have made her career and her life as a mom enriching and also challenging. It’s no secret that trying to balance being a great mom and a successful and accomplished professional doesn’t come without a lot of intentionality. I love to kick it off with you, Jeannine. Jeannine is the Deputy General Counsel of Keck Medicine of the University of Southern California. She’s also the past president of WLALA, which is one of the largest bar associations in LA. She does amazing work to make all of us who know her so proud of witnessing her journey. Welcome, Jeannine.
Thank you, Carrie. I’m delighted to be here. You make me sound so good in that introduction.
We’re so happy to have you.
I’m so happy to be here, especially since you’ve watched me. You have been there for my journey from when I was a very baby attorney, a junior associate, practicing at a firm together. You’ve always been a cheerleader and supporter of me and everyone you come across. Your audience is lucky to hear about all the connections that you’ve made with great people and all of the knowledge that you’ll be able to impart through all these interviews.
What It Is Like To Balance Motherhood And Career
You’re so sweet. I want to go back to Foley, if we can start there. I remember, this is the early 2000s, and you summer intern. You walk through the hallways with a definite glow about you, to be there with intention and dedication. The irony is that I was a new associate with no kids, no spouse, no responsibilities, and barely making it through. You were doing the same thing with I think 1 or 2 little ones at the time. I sit back now that I understand what motherhood is all about, and I wonder how you did that? I love that you share.
It was very challenging, but I did not do it all by on my own. It truly does take a village, and I have had and still have a very strong, wide support system. When I started at Foley as a summer associate, you’re right, my oldest daughter was two, and I had not had any yet. My youngest, I had her in my third year of law school, and this shows you some flawed thinking here.
My thought was, “If I knocked this out early, then they’ll be built into my work schedule.” Everyone says, “Once you get started, that is not a good time to have a little one.” Let me do it now.” I don’t know if I would recommend that anymore. Also, to be honest, when I decided to apply for law school, I didn’t know any lawyers. I didn’t understand the legal field and was hearing things anecdotally. This advice, which I had put together, did not make the best sense. I did have the benefit of, after graduating, working for about a year at a law firm to get to know lawyers and to see if this was something I actually wanted to do.
That is when I applied for law school and went down that pathway. Back to Foley, I have my two-year-old, I’m thinking of maybe having my second, and I didn’t realize how much of a balancing act it was going to be at the time, but I treated being in law school. I was actually at a job already, and so I had child care with my family. I would drop a dollar off in the morning and go to my classes and stay there in between and have it like it was a 9:00 to 5:00. I would pick her up afterwards, and I said, “I’ll just do this with two. There’s no big difference.”
Just a little different.
I did have a glow. I was very optimistic. Young twenties.
We all felt it. As I said, you made motherhood look very easy, like, “Maybe you could have kids in this environment.” Tapping into your village, because it was your family, I wonder whether that helped you manage the guilt factor of leaving them.
Navigating The Guilt Factor Of Motherhood
Being family definitely made all the difference in the world. I felt totally comfortable and they were safe. I knew they were loved and cared for, but there’s still the guilt. Part of my guilt was that my daughter is getting older, she’s looking at my grandmother as her primary caretaker and Mom. I got a little resentful and butthurt. “She’s not going to know who I am. She thinks you’re her mom now. You spend more time with her than I do. I didn’t have kids so as not to spend time with them. This isn’t working.”
Leaving your children with your family while you are at work will ensure they are loved and cared for. Share on XAll those things.
This is a woman who raised four kids, a single mom on her own, working two jobs. She’s like, “They feel loved, they’re cared for, they’re fed, they’re dry, they’re happy, they’re good.” She doesn’t have the problem.
She’s right about that. We all struggle with that, and you’re so lucky you had someone to call you out so early.
She explained to me that it was my own guilt that I was putting myself through for no good reason.
Kids have a way. They know what we’re trying to do, and I feel like sometimes they can sneak in with those feelings that overwhelm you sometimes.
They do. They get better. They learn it as they get older, I feel like. Truly, when they’re the toddler age, they’re overjoyed to see you, but they’re overjoyed to see a lot of people. What I found as they got older, it was having that stand in person there to take them to dance classes or to be there, to help them get ready for the performance. I may make the performance, but I may not be the one taking them, and they were like, “I want you to be there.” Those were the times when I felt like it was more meaningful because then it was about them. It wasn’t about me and my guilt that they actually worked.
They’re choosing you. That’s huge as they get older to recognize that it’s not a manipulative guilt, for lack of a better word, but it’s a true “I want you, I enjoy you. I want to spend time with you as my mom, because I like you.” I think that is more of a fun way to spend time with your kids, and feeling like doing it because you feel guilty about not being with them all the time.
That can be a narrow window, too.
It’s very narrow. I feel like it’s shutting down on me.
Actually, we’re girls and their moms.
Yes.
“I want you there,” and then it goes back to, “Can you drop me off? We want to go. We just want to see if you could pay for it.”
Making Children Proud Of Their Parents
It’s true. It’s it is a narrow window. I was recently at a store, and my daughter wanted to buy the same outfit as me and which was like an orange top, and I was rolling my eyes, and the woman said like “Just do it. She’s not going to do this for longer.” It was like, “Okay,” because it is short. How is it now? Your girls are grown and beautiful, and to see a mom, did they look at you and awe, or is it you’re just the mom because you’re so accomplished and paved such a way?
Regardless of all that, they look at me as their mom, not for my credentials. They definitely are proud. Having my kids proud of me in what I’m doing is one of the best feelings in the world. That’s what we do it for. We do it to take care of them, but all we want them to be happy, and we want them to feel proud of what we’re doing and want to aspire to be like us in some little way. I would not know they are proud from what they tell me. I only know from overhearing or having friends or relatives tell me what they’ve said positively about me behind my back.
Having your kids be proud of you as their parent is one of the best feelings in the world. Share on XIt still counts, especially with daughters. I feel like that’s a harder relationship to have and have that exchange.
We were having a conversation before our conversation here. It made me ask them, “Is there anything I’ve done that you’re proud of?” The oldest one said, “Of course, everything you do. You’re selfless.” I was like, “Something is working.” The youngest one, because this is all over text, because that’s how you have twenty-year-olds.
I understand.
She basically said, “Thank God. You did everything you did for me, and I’m old enough to appreciate it because I was totally blind to it, and I would get annoyed that you were trying to always tell me what to do. Now I see you were trying to help me avoid mistakes and protect me.”
I have the chills because you don’t ever sit in your office at Foley, and looking forward to the future. When you have these little girls flitting around on a Sunday when we’re trying to get work done, and then fast-forward. The text thing, what I love about that is you have it forever. You should take screenshots and save them to your device. That benefits. You should have that in your office because I’m sure there were challenging times with raising two girls.
People did tell me, “They’re going to appreciate you later. I know it’s hard now. Just stay strong.” I was like, “They’re never going to appreciate it, but this is what I signed up for. I got to do it. I got to hold the line, but no, they are not going to thank me later. I know you may think that, but no.” To have it actually materialized and be true, it’s like, “Those other moms know what they were talking about.”
Why Mothers Think Of Others First Before Themselves
You like to believe in them, I do. When you say, “This is what I signed up for,” I don’t exactly know what I signed up for as far as trying to be a mom and a lawyer. To help people who are either thinking about being a mom or who are sitting there holding their newborn or their toddler, trying to figure it out, what would you say they’re signing up for?
The main thing you’re signing up for is always thinking of someone else before you think about yourself. Whether you want to or not, it’s not like a punishment or a curse, though. It’s because they make you whole, and you’re worried about them all the time. You’re thinking about vacation. The first thing you’re going to think about is, “Are they coming with me? If not, where will they be during that time?” Everything about you revolves around them when you go to work revolves around where you’re taking them to camp.
It’s not logistically. When you think about that vacation, we’re we want to go to Yosemite. “Are they going to like camping?” It’s not about whether you care. It’s first, are they going to enjoy this experience? You get so much from their happiness. That’s why you’re trained. It’s something I think that the universe has instilled in it. You’re protecting. We’re thinking about them first, and we get so happy when we see the positive results of what our caretaking has created.
How Mothers Should Take Care Of Themselves
Even those texts, quite honestly, like that came out of years and years of being selfless and keeping them at the forefront of your mind and their well-being, all while you are becoming one of the most successful attorneys that I know. I’m trying to do the math here of how that happens. When you were at Foley, that’s a very demanding environment that I could only withstand for about 2.5 years before I stepped away into the in-house environment. I know you stuck it out a bit longer. What did you learn in that period? To focus on this transition over to the in-house, what motivated you to do that?
Thinking about what we were talking about, being selfless, and all the moms who naturally do this. I don’t think we give ourselves credit for it. I hope that you and other moms will stop and appreciate yourselves for all that you do for them, because we do it so naturally. That is huge to constantly put someone else’s happiness, health well-being before your own, and we have to be healthy about it and make sure we’re taking care of ourselves, but we naturally do it, and I don’t think we give ourselves credit. Instead, we think about what we haven’t done.
That’s our critique as lawyers.
What’s the problem here?
“What are we not doing right?” versus not taking into account a lot of the things that these women are doing great. I think it’s a calling. Once you have that child and you’re responsible for this human, there is some part of our brains that dissipates, because we’re only considering their well-being. It’s a natural instinct.
Being an attorney, where we’re on the perfectionist spectrum, we’re always thinking of how we could do that better or different or easier, and not reflecting on the good. I hope people catch up on what you said. I wish I had heard that fifteen years ago because it might have changed how hard I was on myself and other women on themselves, trying to balance this all.
We don’t stop and give ourselves enough gold stars.
Transitioning From Office Worker To Stay-At-Home Mom
No gold stars. As you’re transitioning from that law firm to in-house rule, was that related to trying to shift it from a personal life, or was it that you obviously had a trajectory in mind for your career as well?
It was a combination. It was in part for them because I wanted to spend more time with them. I felt like that would be fulfilling for me, but also, I cannot say it was all about them. That’s not true. It was all about me and my mental health. I got to a point where I realized, “I don’t want to become a partner. This is not my pathway. The alternative routes that I would take if I stayed there were not what would bring me joy, and the stress from it did not balance out what I was getting from it financially.”
I look at it almost like the cost of happiness. Going in-house was a definite pay reduction, and you definitely stifle or cap your income to a certain extent. You know you’re going to have some marketing increases, but it’s not going to be the same way that you can increase your compensation if you’re at a firm. That was a very conscious choice. I was at the point where I wanted to be part of something larger than me, somewhere that had a mission. I was even open to not practicing law any longer.
I’m speaking to other folks who actually left the practice of law. You hit a couple of buzzwords in that sharing. One is the mental health tool that can come with that level of stress in a law firm, especially as an active parent. If you don’t mind elaborating, what were the signs for you? Just to help other people that might be considering a change, because everyone has their stress limit. I do say that not all stress is bad, but I think you were there in my darker moments. I think I did admit to that I was hoping I’d get hit by a truck on the way to work, just to go take a break.
I remember that. You don’t put yourself there, but you get this nice period where people take care of you, rest, and sleep. “Don’t you ever want something like that?” I was thinking, “No, dear. This is not okay.”
Being Comfortable In Your Own Authenticity
That’s not the way to get it. There are other ways. I suppose you can talk through what your emotional and mental state was as you were making that decision.
When you made that statement here, at least you were self-aware, and there was an awakening. I think what happened with me was that I was on autopilot. I was functioning and operating, and going through the motions and using all of the energy I had at work to solve problems there, to do whatever needed to be done. By the time I was home, I had nothing left to give. I would then start over the next day. It got to the point when we needed to do something like that, and you’re not allowing yourself time to recuperate or have joy, you’re basically pushing yourself into a depression, and that’s what was happening. It’s not good for you, it’s not good for your family.
It’s so hard. I have said this before, “The hardest parent to be is a depressed parent.” Those kids need you to be able to show up, and when you cannot because of the mental exhaustion and emotional stress, especially for how we’re all built. It’s either a point of pulling away and isolation, or it’s a time for action. It sounds like you were able to act quickly enough to navigate through that.
I knew I could do what I was doing. That felt good. I can practice. I can be a good lawyer because I went through a point before where I almost left the law firm, because I felt I wasn’t a good lawyer, that I didn’t have it in me, so I felt confident I could do it, but then I realized, “This is not what I want to do, and it’s not good for me.” I opened myself up to legal and non-legal jobs. I went back to all of my connections that I had until basically all the folks I trusted, “Here’s what I’m looking for, here’s what I’m going through.” It was one of our mutual friends who had left the firm in record time. Before you, she had left.
Someone beat me?
She had left within like 8 or 9 months, but we still went hiking in Runyon Canyon once or twice a month. I was talking to her about it, and she said, “I’m pretty good friends. We go out to dinner with the general counsel at USC, and they’re looking for someone.” I was like, “No, they’re not looking. They were, but that went down. That would be my dream job.” She said, “I’m pretty sure they’re looking. Just send me your resume.” It turned out that the person they had slated for the job was no longer available. They had opened the position back up.
That’s like the stars were aligning.
The stars were aligning because I had tried to apply for that job, and it shut down. It reopened, and I was able to apply quickly. At that time, I didn’t realize exactly what I was walking into, but I knew it felt right. It felt very different. It didn’t feel like I was somewhere where I shouldn’t be. I was definitely welcomed there. I was embraced not only by the attorneys who were there, who were like a family.
USC is one of those places where people don’t leave, especially in our team, in our office. The staff have been there for years and years, and they embraced me. I didn’t realize it at the time, but the staff were rooting for me and very excited because there had not been a black attorney there yet. The staff were minorities. I’m going to be totally honest, it was a little bit ironic because at that time, I looked a little racially ambiguous.
I felt that to be professional, I needed to make sure my hair was straight and blown out and my curls weren’t showing. That was a professional look. I heard from my assistant after I got the job that he wasn’t in that day, and he called and said, “How did the black lady do?” “There was a lady here. She wasn’t white, but I don’t know what she was. I’m not sure if she was black, though.” I went from that to now being much more confident in myself and being who I am. My headshot now has cornrows.
I was with Judy Waltz, and we were raving about the radiance of that picture. You are glowing. There is a light coming through you. Being able to even chat through some of the challenges that you’ve experienced, but also the incredible things you’ve accomplished, that is fulfillment comes through that picture. It’s stunning, and that is who you are.
It’s someone we’re all so proud of for so many reasons. We literally were like, “That is the most radiant picture.” She said, “She’s radiant in every picture.” I was like, “I know.” You have a glow. You have a whole fan club. Going back to that part of who you represent, I know you carry that with a lot of weight, and also probably even harder on yourself to do good and do well. That’s something that we’ve chatted through even at Foley. Getting to a place where you are comfortable in your authenticity, and the fact that USC created that environment for you. I want to say thank you to them.
I have deep gratitude and respect that I can be the same person at work that I am when I’m not at work, because I did not feel that way at a law firm. You were much more confident and comfortable being that same person in and out of the office. It took me leaving to be able to be myself.
Be grateful if you can be the same person at home and at work. Share on XThinking About Leaving The Law
You stayed there quite a while to try to figure out if it was possible there, which is also impressive. The only other tragic thing in what you shared, because I think it would have been such a disservice, is if you had left the law. Did that really happen? You were considering? Why wasn’t it for you? Just so that other people can understand that thought process.
I worked closely with Judy Waltz and Denise Rodriguez. Both are very powerful, bright, and powerful leaders and partners in healthcare.
Those two are legends.
They were very kind and generous with their time, with their intellect, and they basically invested in me to teach me that area of law. Maybe six years in, I felt I was not progressing. I’m not getting it. I don’t see myself as a confident leader who can practice in the way I see these other partners practicing. It does not seem like I have it in me. I felt like the first person I owed that conversation to let know that this was not the right fit and I’m going to move on was Denise because she had invested so much. I sat down with her to give my goodbye speech and thank her. She was not frustrated, but almost perplexed.
I remember that look.
“What are you talking about? Why would you think this?” I explained different instances and things that had happened. I think a lot of it was being in rooms with a lot of old white men who were very loud and confident. I felt like there wasn’t space there for me. She basically said, “They take up the space. You could do the same. They are pontificating and puffing their chests out.” I remember she said, “You’re as smart as any of them.” The fact that Denise is brilliant.
She is brilliant. You should write that one down.
She said, “Look, give me six months. In six months, if you still feel the same way, you can leave.” She basically told me I can leave.
You listened to her. You could have left, but you decided to trust her. That’s good.
I trusted her. If she had that much faith and confidence in me and was willing to invest her time and energy, then I owed it to her and myself. I definitely owed it to her. I stayed, and she focused on pushing me to be more vocal and to create space for myself, and not wait for someone to bring me a seat at the table, but show me how to do it for myself. I cannot thank her enough. I don’t know who else she’s done that for, but I’m sure there are many others. The timing was interesting, too, because right around that time, she was diagnosed with breast cancer, and so she needed to leave. She trusted me with her clients. They were not small clients.
They were not small clients, and she’d had them for decades. That’s incredible. That had to boost your confidence. We’re always looking for things to help us get puffed up.
It did. At the time, I was scared to death. I cannot let this woman down. It’s someone entrusting you with one of their most valued possessions. It’s like, “I’m going to take great care of this.” It worked out well. The timing of all of that was instrumental in boosting my confidence to the point where I felt like, “I do know how to do this. I can practice law, and I just am as good.” Maybe even with some of them, maybe a little smarter, because I know not to be vocal in certain situations when to be vocal.
Having that balance in the experience of knowing what you’re trying not to be like can also be as instructive as stepping out and getting more visible and more vocal. That’s a common challenge that a lot of female attorneys have. It is finding that little piece of confidence right before the answer to say it out loud. If I could whisper something into every female, it’s like, “Just do it. You got it. Do it. Just say it.”
They might be wrong, too, but it’s having that confidence. The one thing it sounds like was also impactful about that experience of Denise handing you her clients that she prepared you for. You’re running a $2 billion organization. That cannot land lightly on your heart. That’s a huge responsibility. I feel like it was the precursor for you having that belief in yourself from Denise. Did that help you as you stepped out of the role from Foley to USC?
Absolutely, because the fact that I had so much respect for her and her opinion, and so if she felt like I did right by her, I did a good job advising those clients, they remained happy. I felt like I had whatever that skill set is needed to be able to advise clients who were at that level. If I could do it from the outside, I felt like there was a good chance I could do it from the inside as well.
How Motherhood Helped Jeannine Become A Great Lawyer
That makes sense. Do you think that anything about being a mother helped you be a great lawyer, or is it helping you?
Absolutely. First, the time management.
That’s a good one.
Being able to coordinate things the way we coordinate. A lot of what we’re dealing with day to day as lawyers and as mothers is solving everyone’s problems. That’s what we are.
A lot of what lawyers are dealing with every single day is as much as what mothers are solving on a daily basis. Share on XThat is the calling.
We get the facts, we get the information, and then we figure it out. “Here’s what could go wrong, here’s what we need to do, and here’s why we should do it.” I may be a little bit too lawyerly, but when I’m talking to my girls, like reading through that text message, my daughter is saying, “You weren’t trying to control me, you were trying to give me the best advice so I wouldn’t hurt myself.” That’s what we’re doing as moms all the time.
True, and maybe you could tell your clients that too.
Yeah, “Help me help you. I’m trying to help you. I see what the problems are here. I see a road you can take. I see a road that has more problems.”
It’s so true. I think about the logistical part as well as getting that trust relationship with your kids. It takes time. I know. I have a lawyer mom, and it’s like having a very bossy mom. We’re dictating what they like. It’s hard to like get them to their decision-making since we already know the answer to solve the problem. Do you have any tips or tricks for moms that are navigating that teen horizon of how to balance out, especially given our personalities?
One of the things that I wish I had done more of is asking them questions and letting them guide themselves instead of telling them what they should do. I do a much better job with clients of saying, “Tell me why that seems like the option you would want to pursue? What are the things you’re worried about happening?” With my girls, I’m automatically like, “No, you should do this. You don’t want to do that.”
“That’s a bad idea.”
“There are so many things that can go wrong,” instead of asking them, “Why do you want to do that? What else have you thought of? Do you think there’s another way you could do that?”
It’s revolutionary because it’s definitely not how I’m rolling the situation right now.
You want to roll in and protect them and tell them what to do. Most children don’t want to be told what to do. They want to feel like they are part of the solution and know the answer, and know better. If I could have been a little bit more hands-off when it came to the advice and listened more before I got there, I think I’ve gotten to that point. I do a much better job at it now, but they’re in their twenties.
How The Get-To Mindset Leads To Fulfillment
It’s not too late, even if your kids are in their twenties. This is a long-term project. There’s no end date. I do want to be sensitive to our time, but I did want to ask you one more question. I think you shared and alluded to this, but have you found fulfillment in this experience over the last 25 years that we’ve known each other?
It’s the times when you don’t expect it when you connect with them, and take advantage of those moments. I remember at one point, my girls were in school in the Valley, and I was living in Los Angeles. We’re going through this big custody dispute. Long story short, I did a lot of driving. I remember thinking that I had to take them here and drive them here. As they got closer to driving and being out of the house, I realized, “I get to do this for them.”
Take advantage of those unexpected moments when you can connect with your children. Share on XSome of those conversations, I don’t know, there’s nothing like being in a car where you’re both captive, you’re attentive, but you’re not looking directly at each other. It doesn’t feel as much pressure. The things that they would share and bring up, I don’t know if we would have had those conversations in any other setting. If we were sitting across from each other, eating a meal together, shifting and realizing, “These are going to come to an end. Let me take advantage. Let me try and enjoy this.”
That gets to the mindset, because I’m driving a lot. It’s taking advantage of that time because it is short-lived. There’s worse. I’m so close to having a driver, and I’ve already taught him how to drive. He knows where the brake is. He knows where the accelerator is. I’m excited. I do think what you shared is so powerful because especially as a working parent, our time is limited. Even those times can be quality experiences.
It doesn’t have to be when you’re on vacation.
Get In Touch With Jeannine
It’s so true. I cannot thank you enough for taking time out of your very busy schedule. You’re an amazing human being, and we’re all so proud of all your accomplishments. It’s been so much fun to be on this journey with you, and I cannot wait to see what you do next.
Thank you, Carrie. I’m so honored that you chose me.
This was the most fun. I look forward to many more. Hopefully, we’ll see each other very soon. Thank you, Jeannine. Have a great day.
Thank you, Carrie.
Important Links
- Jeannine Taylor on LinkedIn
- Keck Medicine of the University of Southern California
- Keck Medicine of USC on Facebook
- Keck Medicine of USC on YouTube
- Keck Medicine of USC on LinkedIn
- Keck Medicine of USC on X
- WLALA
About Jeannine Taylor
As Deputy General Counsel for Keck Medicine of USC, Jeannine leads the legal team for USC’s health system, providing strategic counsel on healthcare matters and governance for all Keck Medicine of USC-affiliated entities.
Key accomplishments include managing the USC Arcadia Hospital affiliation and leading the creation of USC’s health system board. Previously, she specialized in healthcare law at Foley & Lardner LLP and served on clinical trial institutional review board.
She serves on the Board of Directors of WLALA (former President) and as Associate Director for Wescom Financial Credit Union, while actively mentoring future legal leaders and healthcare.
She is also a proud mom to two amazing women. She holds a J.D. from USC Gould School of Law and graduated magna cum laude from UC Irvine.
