Walking away from a prestigious law career isn’t easy, but Linda Klein reveals how leaving Paul Hastings after just 11 months opened the door to a more meaningful life. From chasing deadlines so grueling that an accident felt like relief, to mourning her mother’s passing and discovering her purpose in healthcare, Linda shares the pivots that shaped her path. She reflects on creating wellness programs at City of Hope, choosing to stay home with her twin daughters, and later finding purpose in leading bereavement support groups. With candor and warmth, Linda shows how resilience, grief, and joy can coexist—and how redefining success can lead to a more fulfilling journey.
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From Big Law To Purpose-Driven Work: Facing Grief & Loss In Law, Life & Motherhood With Linda Klein đź‘Ł
Initial Disappointment: The Reality Of A Big Law Firm
Thank you so much for joining the show. It is another exciting day. We have Linda Klein, also known as Loving Linda, joining us. She’s a longtime friend and has a very special story to share about her journey from the law into incredible things. Thank you so much for joining us. I was very much looking forward to this conversation.
Thank you so much for having me.
We’re going to start off strong. Linda and I got to know each other in law school before there were any children involved or even spouses involved. I remember sitting next to you in employment law because you had a bit of honey, which is my favorite candy. I figured I needed to get to know this girl, but our early beginnings were not that smooth and easy. I would love you to share what you thought of me at the outset.
That’s true. I was in law school, and in comes this beautiful, intelligent girl who baked like no one was watching. She would show up to our study groups with freshly baked brownies and cakes. The gentleman loved her, and the boys loved her. I was not the most secure person back then. I’m not that secure now. Here comes this girl who is taking names, but it’s a wonderful lesson. We called her the Pompom Girl, and our group of friends were supposed to be the Pink Ladies. Now that I’m saying this out loud, I realize how ridiculous this sounds.
I love it. You gave the Pompom Girl a chance, and what a ride it has been. We’ve been friends for so long and gone through so many ups and downs. I cannot imagine who I would be without you on this planet. You were like the ultimate badass in law school. I think it’s true that you would come to it on scholarships, top of the class, and crush it. You secured an amazing clerkship and then went on to one of the top-rated law firms in the most prestigious departments. How did that feel after all that hard work to have all that pay off essentially?
Part of me is like, “Who are you talking about? Who is this person?” Thank you. It was an incredible experience. I worked very hard. I was very proud of the fact that it was something that I did myself. I was excited to be financially independent. That was huge. I was also excited about helping other people and using the law in that way. I loved the mental gymnastics of law school. I loved learning new things. I loved problem-solving. It was so much fun. I met my best friend, who was sitting across from me in law school. I loved it. I was very excited to get out into the legal world.
Clerkship Chronicles: A Rainbow Experience
I know your clerkship is a rainbow experience. I feel like that was such a special part, and almost like you made that come to fruition with your hard work to be able to work with Judge Cooper. What was that like for you?
That was incredible. I feel so incredibly grateful that I had that opportunity to talk to these great legal minds and be able to reach the decision that was just, each and every time. That felt so good. It was all different types of law. It wasn’t just one. I learned about maritime law, copyright law, patent law, criminal law, and so forth. That first year out of law school was incredible.
I knew you were headed to Paul Hastings at that point. What was the contrast, or how different was it once you arrived that first day at Paul Hastings? What was that like for you?
It was a lot different than my summer associateship that we did. As many in your audience probably know, a lot of times you’ll spend a summer at a law firm before your final year of law school to feel it out, and then before you accept a full-time position. That summer at the law firm was incredible. Day one, I remember we had an orientation. Part of the orientation was this is how you need to talk to your spouse or partner because you’re most likely not going to see them at all this year. This is the divorce rate of first-year associates. They had a concierge because you were expected to be there for past dinner time. You had a concierge who would order you dinner. It was a lot different than the summer prior.
How did you manage that letdown of, “This is going to be very different than what I was expecting?” Did you voice that opinion, or did you just charge through it?
In the beginning, I charged through. You hear the stories about how you work such long hours, you don’t have a life. It’s so hard. I remember thinking, “That’s all BS. I’m a hard worker. I have a good, solid work ethic. Those people are complaining and making more out of it than it is.” I’m not afraid of the hard work. I wanted to prove myself. I wanted to give it my all. As I stayed there longer and longer, I was like, “The values here seem to be a bit upside down.” It was as bad as I had heard without sounding judgmental.
It’s not for everybody. I think that’s what both of us learned early on, for different reasons, like the law firm life. Some people are called to that and are able to endure and absorb differently. It was alarming to me because you are one of the best lawyers that I know. After eleven months, you were aware. That value disconnect forced you to make an important decision. What was that decision like?
The Eye-Opening Accident: A Catalyst For Change
After about eleven months, it was an agonizing decision to leave the law. I spent so much time, money, blood, sweat, and tears, so to speak. Not only in law, but also at that law firm. I did have colleagues I respected. I had friends I had made. I remember getting an assignment towards the end of those eleven months from one of the big-name partners.
It was 4:00 PM, and he said, “It’s due tomorrow morning.” I had no idea how I was going to get that done. I was so stressed out and nervous. I remember driving home because I thought, “I’ll work at home. It’ll be quieter.” I got hit by a car, a block from my house. I remember feeling this overwhelming sense of relief because I had this excuse that would be okay to say, “I’m sorry. I’m not going to make this deadline tomorrow.” I was like, “That’s an eye-opener.”
It’s important because everyone has had that moment. I shared this thought with someone else that I had hoped on the way to work that I would get hit by a truck, just to give myself a break. Otherwise, there wasn’t an excuse, and we were expected to run nonstop.
I remember craving for fresh air because I would leave my apartment in the morning from my garage to the parking garage downtown. I stay there until after dinnertime, 9:00 or 10:00, then come back, go to sleep. I remember there were days when I had not breathed fresh air.
The challenge when you’re in that environment is to figure out whether you can change this environment that you worked so hard to be in and be part of, but to make that brave decision that “This is not for me.” What encouraged you or gave you the support you needed to step away to know it was going to be okay?
That’s a good question. I know it might sound like I am blaming others, or sounding like a victim, but I felt like I had let them down. I felt like I was not enough. I was not good enough. If I were stronger, smarter, harder working, and had thicker skin, I would be able to take it. Everyone around me was so proud of me. My parents were so proud of me. I got this big law job. I wanted to earn the respect of those partners. There were some amazing legal minds there. They did amazing work. If you love that environment, it was a fantastic place to be.
Most of the time, I felt like I was failing miserably. I had a huge knock to my self-esteem. It was that car accident. I remember my grandfather died, and around that exact same time, my supervisor partner said, “We’re going to load you up with the work so that you don’t think about it.” I remember writing my eulogy. I was going back and forth, doing my legal research, and writing the eulogy at the same time. At that point, I was like, “What am I doing? Life is so short.”
Finding Freedom: Life After The Law Firm
That is a telling moment of how you would transition away from that because it had to be something big. I knew it was something big even in my memory. Also, I love what you did after that, especially for someone who worked their ass off for so long, taking a hiatus to explore what might fulfill you. Share a little bit about what you decided to do after stepping away from the law firm.
I feel like I had a midlife crisis come early. I’m probably still going through one now, but this was a while back now. I wanted to be free. I grew up in a family that owned liquor stores and restaurants. I wanted to learn how to be a bartender and be able to make any drink I possibly could for my friends. Maybe even travel on a cruise ship and be a bartender on a cruise ship. I went to bartending school, much to my parents’ dismay.
I know Carrie jokes with me because I was there. It was a bartending school, and I was going to classes at 2:00 PM on a Wednesday. My friends from the law firm were so envious. I remember making flashcards and studying them late at night. I ended up getting the top score in the bartending class, plus all the extra credit. I was still so stressed out studying for this bartending exam. It was fun. I went to massage school. I wanted to figure out how to give a good massage. It was in the opposite direction of my whole life that I had been gearing towards.
I loved it. I feel like it was such a restorative period for you. As your friend watching that, there’s certainly a certain level of envy. It was like, “That looks amazing.” We’re all still stuck in the law firm, trying to figure our lives out. What do you think you learned from that experience in that period of time? What would you tell Loving Linda the day before she decided to quit the law firm, and what would the next period look like? What would you want her to know?
I would want her to know that your life is not over. There will be other opportunities. Sometimes it feels like, “What am I going to do now?” It’s overwhelming. I have this one skillset. What am I going to do now with the rest of my life? Hang in there. Have faith and trust that you’re going to find something that will be meaningful to you.
Your life is not over. Other opportunities will arise. Share on XWhat did you do in that interim period to find a path and figure out, “Here I am with a great law degree and a great resume,” if you want to be a lawyer? Now you’ve added bartender and masseuse credentials. You don’t see that very often. It’s a good combo. What did you do to try to navigate that next step?
It was very hard. I had a low point. I was down and out for quite some time. I don’t mean to make it sound like it was easy by any means. I felt lost. I’m sure a lot of you can relate. I like working and I like being busy. It was fun to do those things, but after a short period of time, I felt like I wanted to dig into something. I had all this energy and passion, but I couldn’t quite figure out what that was. It sounds simple, but I remember buying every single magazine on the shelf at the old magazine store. This was when they had magazine racks. I don’t think they even have those anymore.
Let’s tell the audience. There used to be racks of printed materials that you could get on the street corners and buy a magazine, in case you had never seen that.
I picked all kinds of magazines, business magazines, pleasure magazines. I gave myself a job, which was to read through all of them and to circle or tear out the articles that resonated with me. Anything that I was super excited to read, I would make a note or rip it out. I remember there were two things that I was most excited about reading. One was about bartending and how to make drinks. The other one was anything non-profit. Anything that would help people. I was so inspired by people who had spent their lives wanting to help people. Around that same time, my mom passed away from breast cancer. That catapulted me into being like, “The time is now.” It was scary, but I need to make a change. I don’t want my life to go by without doing something that feels meaningful to me.
From Law To Leading: Forging A Path In Non-Profit Healthcare
She would be so proud because of the next steps you took, which were very scary looking back, but were bold. I remember getting a phone call from you. I was working at City of Hope at the time, and you were like, “I think I’m interested in pursuing and looking into different non-profit careers.” I was super excited for you. I didn’t know for sure. I knew that there was a lot of passion for cancer, given your mom’s experience and how precious that was for you and your family.
Honestly, all I did was hook you up with a tour, and then you walked out of there and said, “I got a job.” I just want you to see the place, but being who you are, that connection that you created and passion for doing good, I look back at what you’ve done in your relationship with Matt, and all the good you’ve done. I would love you to share what those beginnings are, and finding your footing in that space was like for you, coming from the legal world.
Thank you for that. When my mom died, our family was rocked by it. I’m sure your audience can relate. Anybody who has lost somebody. It turns your life upside down. The brief version of that part was that my mom was treated at excellent medical centers, the top hospitals in the world, but we didn’t receive that compassionate humanistic care that my friend Carrie would tell me about, which they did at City of Hope.
I wanted to do something meaningful in my life if I could help other families who were going through what my family had gone through, and still go through today, even years later. I had no healthcare background. I had this law degree, but I didn’t have any real training in any health field. I was flying blind. Carrie gave me this advice, like, “You’ve got to reach out to people and identify your resources and think of all the people.”
I remember making a list, like Make-A-Wish and the City of Hope. I thought, “I’m going to go. I want to learn as much as I can and ask people for advice on what I can do to break into this field.” I was very fortunate to be at the right place at the right time. I will say that my law degree helped immensely. It opened doors. I don’t regret getting my law degree. It has helped me in so many ways, not only in opening doors, but also in how I think, how I organize things, and how I approach teams.
Also, how you worked so hard. That’s one of the things that was fascinating to watch at City of Hope, especially as you infused children into your experience. When you were working there, you were working so hard to create the wellness center there, and all of a sudden, these two little ones arrived. You love with a very big heart. That was a huge experience, but you also loved City of Hope so much. What was that like for you?
I did get pregnant, and I had twins. I remember the whole time I was pregnant thinking, “I’ve got my full-time nanny lined up. This won’t impact my life at all. I will wake up in the morning and go to work like I’m doing now and come home, and there they’ll be, and then I will spend time with them.” Nobody was as surprised as I was at how much I wanted to be home with those girls and how much I love them, and how different your life becomes. All your plans fly out the window. That was hard because it was my dream job. I’ve never had a job like that. I’m forever grateful to Carrie for bringing me into that world.
It changed my life in every way. It was a real mourning. I went to many months of therapy before I was able to pull the plug on City of Hope. It was a very hard time, but I will say that I have no regrets about leaving. I miss it every day. I miss my work at City of Hope. I miss being part of a workforce like that. I miss the hard work. I miss my colleagues. I miss doing good in the world, the programs I helped create, but I don’t at all regret the time that I’ve gained with the girls in the process.
Balancing Passions: Motherhood And Meaningful Work
The huge transition point for me in this is the good in the world that you’re doing in raising great human beings. I know there’s a tension out there in the world between working moms and stay-at-home moms. It’s the importance of that parenting role, especially for a person like you, that is all or nothing. I do remember the struggle when you were at City of Hope. It was technically a 9:00 to 5:00 job. Most people would have done between 7:00 to 3:00, 8:00 to 4:00.
You don’t have that ability. Even when children arrived, it was hard. It made sense as an outsider, even though I knew it was hard for you to walk away from your dream job to be the dream mom that you wanted to be. I guess the other question for everybody is, how do you keep yourself immersed in what you’re passionate about professionally, while you’re still able to have a greater presence with your children? What does that look like for you?
You’re spot on in that. I wish I were better at doing less. I wish that I could have found that right mix of dialing it back a little bit. I was unable to find that balance. I still wish I could. That’s probably a regret. I wish I could have figured out a way to find that balance at the time. As much as I love being a mom, there did come a time when I felt a need to use my head again in that way. I look at what I feel passionate about and ways in which I could help people.
If I’m going to be away from my kids, I want to pick something that is meaningful and has an impact on people. I ended up going through training. Back to my family and my roots, when my mom died, our family was lost. My sisters, my brother, my dad, and I were lost. We had all kinds of issues following that. I wanted to help people. I got trained in leading bereavement support groups on a volunteer basis. I co-lead bereavement support groups at a nonprofit in California called Our House.
How has that been for you? I feel like that would be so hard to do, but I see the light in your eyes when you talk about it. It makes you beam a bit because of the good work. Meeting people in that moment, how do you like to navigate that?
I hate to sound clichĂ© or corny, but it almost does feel like a calling. My husband and my friends say, “Why would you want to spend time doing that?” My husband’s bookshelf is stacked with comic books and sci-fi, and mine is like death and dying and comforting a loved one when they die. Instead of running away from that situation, I want to run into it, and I want to be there for that person and sit with them or help them in any way that I can. I recognize that I didn’t have the tools. I still am learning, but I want to get the tools and be able to be there for people in that way. It’s incredibly meaningful. It also feels like I’m honoring my mom in the process as well.
I think she would be blown away because I know it took a lot for you to get into a place where you could enter into that bereavement experience. The hard work of managing through your own emotions and feelings, and that lost feeling for good. Everything comes back to good, even from the law firm to City of Hope to this. If you’re open to it, I would love you to share that you’ve written a book that has also had a profound impact. To me, it was revolutionary that you were able to bring all those people together to talk about something that’s so important. Do you mind sharing more about what that was like participating in that project?
The Profound Project: Co-Editing A Book On Loss
Thanks for asking. It sounds a bit awkward, but I was loving doing the bereavement work. My former boss and mentor, Matt, had this amazing idea for a book targeted towards healthcare professionals, doctors, nurses, and so forth who face death and dying on a daily basis, but are expected to be stoic and not grieve, not only the losses they experience in the professional setting, but also in their personal lives.
We have oncologists at City of Hope who are dealing with dying patients whom they’ve become connected to. At home, they may be a caregiver for their dying mother, or their child might be sick. Nobody talks about it. There’s such a stigma associated with talking about it. Matt wanted to put together a book of top healthcare professionals who would go deep and share unflinching, raw stories about loss in their own lives.
Also, hopefully, to serve as a role model or inspiration for others to know that they’re not alone, and it’s okay to know that they fall apart behind the scenes. I was very lucky to be brought on to this project. I co-edited this book of stories by healthcare professionals and their own personal lives about the losses they experienced. It was published by Oxford University Press. I hope it’s been having a wonderful impact.
It’s so profound, and it’s such an important conversation to have about something that doesn’t get talked about enough, and all of that, our loss and our grieving. I am so impressed that you have found a way, even in the course of stepping away from that 9:00 to 5:00 or whatever. We only do 7:00 to 7:00 jobs, but we want to have an impact and continue to do good. You have three girls. They’re amazing. What is their perspective? Do they share about how they see you? Do they know that you were a lawyer? Do they have a sense of who their mom is from that side of things?
That’s a good question. I will say one quick thing because I hope it will be of help to your audience, which has to do with the book and loss. The book itself is not only about loss of life, but about loss of other things in your life. Leaving the law firm was a loss. Leaving City of Hope was a real loss. Becoming a mom, you grieve. You lose a lot of parts of yourself that you don’t have anymore once you bring this family on. It’s okay to grieve that loss. You’re not a bad person for having these beautiful children in your life. How could I feel bad about leaving my job when I get to be with my girls? It’s okay to feel both. I felt both all the time, and it took me a long time to be okay with that.
It's okay to grieve the loss of a job. Share on XThat is such an important message. I hope everyone caught that. A lot of times, we beat ourselves up for feeling that way and that tension. You’ve experienced so much accomplishment and joy in your own professional life that it’s something that transitions into a very different experience when you do bring a family on board or have to leave a job in order to care for them. I love that. Thank you for sharing that.
My kids, sometimes I feel like I did this for nothing because I’m home with them all day, and then I go out for twenty minutes and they’re like, “Where are you? Where are you going? You’re never home with us anymore,” if I go have dinner with a friend. I’m like, “I gave up my career for you. I’m home more than most moms.” Sometimes, I still get that. At the end of the day, they do. I don’t know how much they know about my professional life. You’ve been great about reminding them to be happy. My husband will remind them. Thank you. It makes me feel good. I want to be a positive role model for them so badly.
You definitely are, even knowing that you can have a dream and it changes. It’s a role model for all of us. I think that’s one of the most that I was so passionate about, even though I know this is not in your comfort zone, to have a conversation like this so that your story is heard. A lot of women might find themselves in a very similar situation, and to know that there is hope beyond what you originally thought was your dream job that didn’t end up being so.
For your girls, for me, for my girl, and for all my kids, you are on a path, and you don’t know exactly where it’s going to land. That’s been such a beautiful part of your story and your experience. I will keep reminding your girls what a badass you are. I hope they’re tuning in right now. Your mom is a badass.
Thank you.
When they’re talking about their own path, especially when we’re about to embark on the teenage years, do you ever think that any of your lawyering skills might inject themselves to help you manage? Do you think that lawyering has helped your mothering, or mothering has helped you as a profession? Have there ever been those kinds of moments of like, “This is interesting?”
Lawyering has taught me how to manage 4,000 different logistics. I feel like I can call myself the vice president of domestic operations. As you know, you’re juggling four billion different balls in the air logistically for your kids. That has nothing to do with you or your husband. That was very helpful. One of the things that the law was so great at teaching me is to always hear both sides and to come at everything from two sides. Also, to anticipate potential problems or roadblocks that are going to come down the pike, and to proactively get ready to deal with them before they turn into big problems, which doesn’t work so well.
It’s a good idea. It’s advanced planning. I think it’s totally helpful. We know something bad is going to happen. As much as we don’t like to think about our personalities like that, I’m a worst-case-scenario planner. I know how this is going to unwind, and it’s just a matter of how long and how to prevent it. I think that’s a good skill.
It is so different because you have so little control in so many ways when you’re a parent. You don’t know which way the wind is going to blow, and you have to wing it sometimes. That’s different than practicing law, at least for me, when you have so much more control over a situation.
Always hear both sides, approaching everything from two angles. Anticipate potential problems or roadblocks and proactively deal with them before they become big issues. Share on XNavigating Motherhood: Lessons From Law And Life
A lot of the reason that this show is in existence is to help women lawyers, but all women who are parents or thinking about becoming parents navigate the road ahead, especially through motherhood. When you look back and you see Linda sitting in the law firm office, not having the greatest day, and knowing how the story is going to continue, what would you tell her? What would you encourage her?
I would say, “Be your own best friend.” I wish that I was my own best friend. I have to remind myself, and I remind my girls about that because it’s so easy. I do this too. I beat up on myself. I was failing. I wasn’t doing right. If I was this, if I was better, or if I was enough, then I wouldn’t be facing all of these things now. I wish that I could have told that girl to be your own best friend. What would you tell your best friend if she were sitting here with you? Stop hating on yourself? It’s very clichĂ© again, but life is so precious. The moments are so precious. Try to capture the joy as much as you can.
I’m a big fan of capturing the joy.
I love that. I borrowed that from Carrie.
That’s such a good one. When I think of you, I hope certain things for you while watching your journey. Would you say that you have found fulfillment? Where do you think it draws itself the strongest?
I feel fulfilled, and it took me a long time to get there. When I think about the things that I’m most proud of, it’s the time that I’ve spent with the girls and trying my best to raise these future leaders. Although my husband and I joke that we’ve already started their therapy fund because they’re going to need it more than a college education. I would be so regretful if I missed out on these moments in their lives. I’m most proud of the programs that I created and helped create, and the time I’ve spent making a difference in other people’s lives. Even though it was a huge pay cut, I think my salary was like one-eighth of what I was making at the law firm.
Be your own best friend. Share on XI know. It was amazing, but you still worked like you were at the law firm. I couldn’t believe it.
It was worth it. I had to cut back in many ways in my life, but to have been able to infuse my day-to-day with that type of meaning was special.
You were so joyful. That was so special. That was so fun when we got to see each other at work. It was amazing.
That was the best.
The title of the show is The Mothers in Law. I know everyone has a tidbit or trick about their mother-in-law. I know you have a special one, but if you don’t mind sharing one thing you’ve learned from your mother-in-law about how to navigate that relationship.
I wish I had some very juicy, terrible mother-in-law, monster-in-law story. I will say that my mother-in-law is an inspiration. This is a woman who is now in her early 80s. For her 70th birthday, she went skydiving. She swims every morning. She lost her husband of 30-plus years. A few years later, Match.com. Now she’s in a hot and heavy relationship with somebody in their 80s, having the best time.
She’s had a lot of losses in her life. She’s not as mobile. She cannot do some of the things she used to do, but she shifts her perspective on “What can I do? What can I focus on? What joy can I bring into life? Even though it looks completely different from what it did 10 years ago or 5 years ago.” She forges forward and makes the most of every moment because it’s such a gift the moments we get. It is such a gift.
I love that. That’s very inspirational for all of us. For all those single attorneys out there, maybe you should call her and get some advice because it’s not an easy dynamic. Thank you so much for being here. This was the most fun. Maybe we’ll have you back, and we’ll delve in more. We appreciate you taking the time.
Thank you so much for having me.
Important Links
- Linda Klein on LinkedIn
- City of Hope
- City of Hope on LinkedIn
- Our House
- Loss and Grief: Personal Stories of Doctors and Other Healthcare Professionals
About Linda Klein
Linda A. Klein, JD, began her professional career as an attorney. Out of law school, she was selected to do a coveted federal clerkship for the Honorable Florence-Marie Cooper, District Court, and went on to work with Fortune 500 companies at a prestigious global law firm.
Following the excruciating experience of watching her 55-year-old mom die from breast cancer, she dedicated her career path to supporting others faced with such suffering and being “the hope” to many people in their most difficult moments.
She was recruited by the Department of Supportive Care Medicine at City of Hope to oversee the Sheri & Les Biller Patient and Family Resource Center where she developed a large number of integrated interdisciplinary programs focused on enhancing strengths and resiliency in cancer patients and their families.
She also contributed significantly to the Science of Caring portion of Medical Grand Rounds and assumed a leadership role in building the institution-wide advance care planning initiative. She spoke nationally for City of Hope, raising funds and awareness of the Institution. Ms. Klein has published in peer-reviewed journals and has presented at national meetings.
Ms. Klein, agonizingly but with no regrets, left her dream job at City of Hope after her third child was born. Â Since then, aside from her role as Vice President, Domestic Operations, Klein-James Household, Inc., she has voluntarily co-lead bereavement support groups at Our House Grief Support Center, one of the largest nonprofit grief centers in California. Â She co-edited Loss and Grief: Personal Stories of Doctors and Other Healthcare Professionals (Oxford University Press, 2023).
She currently co-produces Staging Loss: Talking About What We Do Not Talk About, a unique, interactive theatrical experience focused on supporting healthcare professionals as they courageously navigate their own personal and professional losses.
She spends her “free time” Ubering her 3 daughters to their various activities, laundering macaroni and cheese stains, embarrassing her 7th grade twin girls just by saying hello to them, and being told “she doesn’t understand.”  And she loves every second of it.  And doesn’t.  And does…
