Career growth in law isn’t just about climbing titles, it’s about growing as a person, mentor, and parent along the way. In this inspiring part two with Sue Bunnell, she shares how embracing reflection, mentorship, and authenticity shaped her path at Wells Fargo and beyond. From helping lawyers find joy in their work to building supportive teams that value curiosity over competition, Sue reveals the habits that sustain long-term success. Through stories about raising her sons, redefining ambition, and finding balance, she reminds us that growth is never linear—it’s an evolving process of learning, leading, and showing up with purpose both at home and at work.
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Redefining Success: Career Growth In Law And Beyond With Sue Bunnell – Part 2
We are here with Sue Bunnell for part two of her amazing insights and observations about how to be a great attorney and an amazing mom.
What was that moment when you’re like, “There’s more that I want,” and how are you going to get there?
Stepping Out Of The Victim Role: Growth & The Catalyst Program
I think when I felt frustrated and was willing to step out of the victim role, that’s when growth really happened for me. When I was willing to stop stomping my feet and actually start using my hands and brain to make progress for myself. Obviously, everyone has a different path. I now lead a group called the Catalyst Program inside the Law Department at Wells.
Our law department is 1,100, 1,200 people. We serve a company of 234,000 people. It’s big. I teach a cohort of 30 or 40 people every year. What’s interesting is we have coaching sessions. They’re paired one-on-one with a mentor where they get to take what they’ve learned and really take the lesson and break it down over them.
You can give people the lesson and that’s the blanket, but sometimes you’re laying the blanket over the Sahara, sometimes you’re laying it over the Himalayas. Sometimes you have it in the middle of the ocean. The same lesson is going to hit different depending on where you are. It’s going to hit different, depending on whether you’re feeling massive capital Ambition or whether your ambition is more impact.
I don’t want any other job in this bank, and that makes me different to a good portion of the department. What that means is I get to show up with an ease and a generosity and an openness, because I’m not in competition with anyone. The only person I’m in competition with is myself for to be the best me I can be, and that’s a fantastic day.
When I was going for a bigger job and I was in competition, what’s funny is I knew the folks I was in competition with, and we were all rooting for ourselves, but also rooting for them. It’s still possible to do. There are times when I didn’t get a job and somebody I knew and liked got the job and I was thrilled. I think it’s possible, especially as we get older and intellectually, we have capacity to go, “I fully feel this while I also fully feel that.” I am sad for myself while I’m being thrilled for my friend. I think the same thing is true with our kids. Typically, I think our biggest problems is when our child isn’t wired the same way we are wired.
The same lesson is going to hit different depending on where you are. Share on XMy number two kid, that’s just a way easier kid for me to deal with because that kid’s wired the way I’m wired. We have the same shorthand, we have the same language, and we traveled together. He was a studied in Europe and he and I were traveling around together, and we were both like this. My oldest and my husband are a little bit more facts and information and not necessarily quite at the fingertips. The two of them were traveling together. It’s a funny story. They showed up at the airport a little bit early and by a little bit early, I mean a day and a couple of hours early because neither one of them had gotten the day of the flight. I guess I should be thrilled that it was a day early, not a day late.
I think we’re most frustrated with people who are not wired the same way we’re wired. It’s one thing like you can change your work environment. My understanding is you can’t swap your kids. Although there have been times where I’ve wanted to swap my kids. I I think when it comes to work, I am a big fan of really having an annual check-in with yourself. Am I continuing to learn? Am I continuing to expand? Am I having fun? Do I have a laugh? Is there someone here who I want to grab coffee with? People don’t need to be your best friends, but is there a positive vibe?
When someone needs help, do people raise their hands or do people stare down at their paper? That’s really it. I’m very fortunate to be in a great group now, and when people go on vacation, it’s like, “Do you need any help? What can I do?” I think it’s an easy place to get behind, but I think folks who aren’t feeling that, the question is how do I put myself in a position? How do I expand my opportunities? There are a lot of folks who do that. I don’t even know where to start. I get that. We we’re lawyers, so we’ve got those associations. We work in a specific area.
We’ve got those associations. We work in a specific industry. Some of us, we’ve got those associations. I think it’s just expanding the pool because there’s a great study on the law of weak ties. When it comes to looking for a job, you know all the same things that your best friends at work know if you have the same exact information pool.
However, people who you went to college with or people who you went to law school in age ago with, or people who you grew up with, those people are your weak ties. They have a circle of information that is totally different to your circle of information. I think first of all, it feels like you’re getting something done. I’m going to reach out to Carrie and say, “I wonder if there’s anything for me down in Orange County.” I went to law school at UCLA. UCLA buddies, like, “If there’s something going on.”
I think understanding that expanding our circles of experience is necessarily going to bring in more opportunity. I’ll tell you too, sometimes you look around and it’s really easy to see the nightmare that’s in front of you. You look around and I know folks who’ve gone out there in the world and interviewed and they’ve come back going, “No, actually I’m fine.” That’s actually way better.
Wells Fargo’s Innovative Culture: The Opportunity Graph
I tell everybody, “You should go to every interview you’re asked to go to.” Just a data project, just to meet new people. I love making the world a smaller place. I also think it’s because of like, “That looks actually horrible. I would never want to go there,” just to validate you’re in the right place. I do want to just pause because I know for a fact that you’ve helped create the culture that even contemplates this concept at Wells Fargo.
This is pretty innovative, to have a program that actually fixates on something that matters so much, but that we don’t often get time to think about because we’re so busy doing the doing. Do you feel like that’s made an impact on that environment to make it a better experience? The 1,200 lawyers is a lot. I know this is a growing program, but even with the ones that have participated thus far, it’s pretty awesome that they’re investing in that and that you’re such a key part of it.
I can tell you, 1,200 legal people all in, not all lawyers. It’s professionals, consultants, paralegals and admins. I want to say all in. When I started here many years ago, the idea that if you went from one group to another group, you were a traitor. There was a lot more possessiveness, there was a lot less idea that if you stay anywhere in the family, you’re doing great. I think the company has undergone a real change in attitude about how it educates and how it trains and how it develops its people. It’s absolutely for the better. It mirrors, frankly, the path in the world, which heads on grind it out to actually a heads up thought about where I want to go next.
There’s a fun thing that I know we’ve licensed in from outside, but it’s called an opportunity graph. What it does is it shows you everyone who has your current title, the different jobs they’ve gone on to do. If you can’t think of something that you might want to do, we’ll literally tell you. Somebody has gone from legal to risk management or legal to compliance or legal to name your poison.
The mapping. That’s fascinating because people get stuck. I was with a bunch of female lawyers that were dissatisfied in the law firm life because it’s not easy, it’s not for everybody. They had gone on and the different things that they’ve gone to do. One was a publishing, one was in writing. It was a fascinating conversation because you don’t think that way when you start as a lawyer. You think, “I have to do this, I need to be a partner.” There’s 1,000 different paths. The fact that they created opportunity, it’s amazing. It’s a really incredible gift.
The Multiverse Of A Lawyer: Beyond Law Firm Partner
Back in the day when I was in law school in the 1900s, no, but my children will often say, “Mom, what was it like that in the 1900s,” like they’re talking about 1544. I don’t like it at all. I was in law school. I graduated in ’93, so many years ago. What you saw was in the TV world, you saw litigators and folks who did M&A. There was no multiplicity. There was no multiverse of what a lawyer could be in the world. You certainly didn’t see in-house counsel. Frankly, the law firms I worked at, they were like, “In-house counsel is for people who can’t hack it in the law firm.” That was absolutely that perspective. It was delightful and super condescending.
I’ve never heard that, actually.
I think being a lawyer isn’t the albatross around your neck. It’s the platform on which you stand. Lobbying and public policy and legislative work and politics themselves, and certainly in-house counsel and compliance and risk management and privacy, like, there’s a million different offshoots. We have taught ourselves to think critically.
Being a lawyer isn't the albatross around your neck. It's the platform on which you stand. Share on XWe have taught ourselves to evaluate risk. We have taught ourselves to speak cogently about how to lead people who are less educated than we through some pretty complicated decision paths to get to a productive decision because all of life is a tradeoff to move things forward, to either to do social good in a nonprofit to make revenue in a for-profit company, to drive to maximum benefit, maximum utility in a government or in a public policy sense.
I think we are smart, thoughtful, intentional people, and I think we can put that energy towards anything. I think the days of, if you didn’t make law firm partner, you’re a failure are gone. I’m super happy about that. That is absolutely the system that I grew up in. I’m sure there’s some folks who still really feel that but I didn’t become a lawyer because I wanted to be a partner. This is going to be terrible. I’m going to tell you this story. We grew up in the same town, and it’s a town that had a decent amount of money. My dad was a salesman, which meant we had some great months and some not great months.
I will tell you, the kids of lawyers, mostly at that point, dads, I don’t really think I knew any moms who were lawyers back then, they all seem to have very organized lives. They had trips to here and there never seemed to be a huge want. Our family had a lot of this. In my mind’s eye, being a lawyer was a way to have financial stability. That was the only reason I wanted to be a lawyer. It wasn’t because I had to have a corner office. It certainly was because I did not want to go into court. I think having a service that writes down every word I say is not going to be good for anyone.
Not good for me, not good for the client. No one wins. For me, being a lawyer was my path to not having to worry if the clutch and the refrigerator broke down the same month, which one am I going to pick? It’s okay to have these months. We all make different mistakes than the ones made on us. My parents loved us. They wanted the best for us. I don’t think they realized how that felt to a kid. They did great, but again, I lived in a town that was wealthy.
It wasn’t until I went to Berkeley that I realized, “We were just fine.” I had a dataset problem. I was looking at this little tiny range of super rich people and thinking I was over here in poverty. I went to Berkeley and I was like, “I’m incredibly fortunate.” I had some moments where we were less fortunate relative to my peer group, but I never worried about food. I never worried about a lot of things that frankly were pretty dire adverse childhood experiences for some of my larger cohort.
I think there’s so much truth to that. Even navigating that with my own kids, we are constantly narrating about how small their data set is and how critical it is to branch out of this because they’ll learn those lessons. They will learn the lessons when they need to. I think that’s powerful. The financial security thing was definitely a driver for me as well. I wanted to go into theater, but that seemed uncertain. When I went to the law firm and I realized you had to fight for your hours, that was actually a little more uncertain than I expected too. The fluctuation of getting work and getting enough work and all of that was a different stress. It’s like the grass is always browner, I feel like, in those circumstances.
When you come back to like lawyering and parenting and trying to integrate at all. My kids went to parochial school and I wanted them to have an experience where they were not at a private school where everyone had a G5 and a second and third home. I wanted them to see that in my hometown, which is their hometown, which is San Francisco and where I live now, that there are doctors and lawyers and captains of industry, but there’re also nurses and firemen and policemen and teachers and contractors and a guy who’s a crossing guard. I wanted them to see the full range of jobs and all of them are valuable and worthwhile. I told them that any job that you do with respect is a job that deserves respect.
Any job that you do with respect is a job that deserves respect. Any job that you don't treat respectfully, then you're the problem. Share on XAny job that you don’t treat respectfully, then you’re the problem. Every single job can be done with respect and can show that you’ve got class, that you’ve got a sense of integrity and a sense of self. It doesn’t matter whether it’s the most frowned upon menial job. There was a time in in college where it’s like the way to get money the easiest was like, I cleaned. I cleaned houses. I was like, “Oh.” I remember saying that to somebody from my hometown who reacted exactly like that. I was like, “Why? I listen to my music.” It’s very low on customer service.
Parenting Wisdom: The McDonald’s Lie & Intentional Decisions
Yes, but very important at the same time. It’s so true. I don’t want to miss the mcdonald’s story, for sure. I wrote it down because I’m early onset senility. I’d love to hear so why it’s okay to lie to your kids.
I think there’s times where my oldest knew everything and had to know everything. There were times when I realized I could say, “Do you remember when?” If he didn’t remember, his first inclination’s going to be, “Of course I remember. I never forget anything.” He always wanted to go to mcdonald’s. I am from Southern California, so I am an In-N-Out girl. Of course, it’s the early 2000s and processed food. Not that that isn’t true now, but certainly lots of press on that. Nico would be like, “Mom, I want to go to mcdonald’s.” I go, “Honey, don’t you remember when you went to mcdonald’s and you got sick all over yourself? You said you would never go to mcdonald’s again. You don’t remember?”
He went like, “Of course I remember.” I go, “We can go to In-N-Out.” He is like, “Mom, I think I got sick because of the burgers and fries and I don’t think I got sick because of the cookie.” Yeah, he’s that kid. I go, “Honey, I’ll go through the drive through and I’ll get you and your brother.” I don’t know what age he was. He was barely pre-teen. He was like 10 or 11. I go, “Do you know I fully lied to you?” He was like, “What?” I was like, “Honey, there are times when you need to help your kids make good decisions because they can’t make good decisions on their own because they are bombarded with messages about the excellence of mcdonald’s or what have you. I said, “Sometimes I do things because it’s easier for me and that has value.” Later, he and his brother have both laughed, like, “Mom’s a genius. We were such idiots.” I was like, “Yeah.”
Cultivating Appreciation: Navigating Teen Years & Alternative Paths
Any positive feedback coming from them, I love it. I know you shared a really sweet text from one of your sons before we started, because I think that’s another place where a lot of young moms are in disbelief of the potential for positive feedback from your kids because we’re working so hard, we’re uncertain. It’s a mess.
I’ll be honest, there’s a lot of places when you’re being a working mom that is messy when you don’t know if it’s resonating or they’re even seeing anything that you’re doing. With your sons, what has their experience been with you? Obviously, they’re very vocal in sharing. What have they shared with you that might help give us a little hope or just a reality check on what it’s going to look like in another ten years?
Every phone call ends with I love you. I cultivate a culture of appreciation. I am constantly telling them what I appreciate about them. I’m a big person for supporting effort and supporting intention and trying to focus less on the outcome because kids are imperfect. Even when they’re trying, sometimes the results are so awesome or they’re doing things great and then they have this moment late in high school or early in college where they do something truly F-ed up. It comes down to you. I thought I taught them better. You realize their little brain was like, “Glitch.” Peer pressure.
The reality is that how they are when they’re 8, 9, 10 and 11 when they’re like, “I love you, mom,” and they want hugs and they want love, they get back there. I think the tsunami of hormones and peer pressure and academic pressure. When my oldest kid was in ninth grade, I said, “I’m going to be clear with you. The world’s going to freak out about college. There are 3,000 colleges between Canada and the Rio Grande, and there are more if you go international. You will go to a college and it will be great.” I started really early. I just said, “You’ll go to a college and it’ll be great.”
When my oldest was a senior, it was when COVID fell. He really needed to not be in our house. I think there’s that whole thing that happened, from the second half of junior year through the end of senior year that psychologist called soiling the nest. They are so unpleasant that this person who you cannot ever manage separating from you, that’s what they have to do in order to leave the house.
My mom calls it the year of the divorce. It’s like that’s what’s happening. Even with him, that happened.
I was like, “You don’t necessarily need to go to school,” though he did go to school. I said, “I think you’re done being here, and based on your behavior, we’re also done having you here. It would be better for everyone in our long-term relationship for you to go to school.” He ended up going to school and it was fine. I’ve always said, “If you don’t want to go to school, go be a welder and make $180,000 a year. Go work your way up to, and then own a laundromat and make $250,000 a year. You don’t need to be a white-collar type and hit send on the email worker in order to make very good money.
In my part of town, we’re surrounded by contractors and folks who have their own small business who make amazing money. None of whom did more than maybe a year or so of community college, all because they had a different vision for what success looked like. It didn’t have to be something that came with a linkedin profile and a series of letters after their name because I don’t think that’s what makes you valuable. I think what makes you valuable is how you show up in the world and what you contribute.
I think having a mom that’s so successful that does have all the letters after calling out that reality and sending that message early. It had to be so relieving for your children or did they grasp how awesome that was? That’s not the message I got.
I think they do now. It’s also one thing, “Mom, you say that, but you were this person.” I go, “Yeah, I was that person. I did get 2 degrees in 4 years at Berkeley. I did go straight through to UCLA law school.” You look at my credentials and I look fancy. I said, “Here’s the thing. That’s my path. That’s not your path.” My oldest kid is an artist and he is an artist, but he’s an artist with all of the loose tethering to information dates and timeframes.
When he’s on it, there’s no one more on it. His path through is not going to be my path through. Back to what I said before is like, what I imparted to them is you need to be able to take care of yourself, whatever that means. You need to be surrounded by people who love you. You need to do something that reasonably pleases your heart. The oldest one, I was like, “I’d love you to be an artist, but you’re going to need to be a welder or work at the post office or get a daytime job because you’re not going to be funding your art. You are going to be funding your art.”
You need to be able to take care of yourself, to be surrounded by people who love you, and to do something that reasonably pleases your heart. Share on XNo, but it’s amazing to give them the freedom and also the responsibility, but knowing that early, I think, is just such a gift because sometimes it comes too late or it’s hard to have a lawyer as a mom in some ways.
Recall, we grew up in a town where there were kids who had not just enough, but too much. I think when you tell a kid that they don’t ever have to try because they’re always going to be taken care of, I don’t mean emotionally.
Financially, yes.
Yeah. I think it wrecks you. You want them to strive, you want them to try because that’s where we grow. We grow when we fail, as you were saying before. I know that the women who work in the trust and estate area. They work with well to do and really well to do folks. You look at the first generation of kids and the second generation of kids and what incredible wealth overly, generously distributed does to sap the will to work.
This is maybe just my puritan whatever ethic, but it’s like, I think that we are at our happiest when we feel like we’re making a difference, whatever that means to be making a difference. I want my kids to feel like they’re making a difference for themselves, for their world. They lead with a sense of generosity. When they call them, they say, “Yeah, my friend was moving. They didn’t have a driver’s license, so I rented a truck so that they could move their stuff.
I love this because it’s not a message that’s communicated enough, quite honestly. I actually steal it from my dad because I think he was so good at just being radically generous. That’s my number one value for my kids. When you hear that story that your son calls you and tells you that, that is like better than getting into fucking Harvard or wherever. To me, that, in the world, it’s like you’ve succeeded. Does that give you the most fulfilling experience? I feel like it has to.
I’m not going to lie, Carrie. When my kids get good grades, it makes me really happy because I’m a nerd. My youngest is a dean’s list kid. He is a kid who had a little bit of a learning difference that he aged out of. His brain grew or whatever, so auditory processing. Some things take a little bit longer and you see those kids. You’ll remember when your kid was in first grade and your kid is struggling with this book. There’s the kid who over there who’s reading Harry Potter.
Very familiar. I want to pause on that because my son, my older had similar challenges and I remember this really mean therapist and I just really didn’t know what to do. I didn’t know what to do. I didn’t have this. I didn’t know anyone that experienced this learning challenge. She looked at me and she’s like, “This is going to be awful for you. You’re not going to know how to deal with this. I looked you up. It’s really hard for people that are like professionals and lawyers when you have a child like this.” I’m like, “I think I’m going to be really compassionate and help him.” I remember that distinctly, but it really, I guess, forced me into even handling it better just to prove her wrong. It’s really jarring. When you have a child that overcomes that, that must give you a lot of pride. It’s a lot to get through, also.
It’s really funny. I think the things that hold us back can sometimes be our greatest tool. He had to do his work in advance. He had to have things planned out because unlike his brother who could study for two hours the night before a test and get an A, he had to really, which now has made him incredibly intentional and organized and planful in a way that the other one who skied in at the very end.
The things that hold us back can sometimes be our greatest tool. Share on XKaizen & The RAZ: Embracing Change And Positive Self-Talk
The same thing is true in our lawyer world. I think sometimes, we’re presented with challenges, a new topic, a new client, a new type of law, a new area. I think sometimes, we have amazing insights because we’re new to it. Sometimes we have to learn things. We have to put ourselves in uncomfortable positions to learn new things that ends up making us just better overall. We are learning something over here that we never knew has made us better everywhere. That’s why I think, again, good parenting makes for better lawyering. Strong lawyering makes for better parenting. Certainly, we’re good debaters.
For me, it’s this idea that you’re never stuck. There is always the possibility of making a change. I’m not saying a radical change in a minute like I was saying before, but there’s that Japanese concept of kaizen, that sense of like, I sit where I am and I have acceptance of where I am and the choices I’ve made that have gotten me here, but I’m not stuck here. There are things both small and large that I can do. I go to school and get a degree. I know there are lawyers who are like, “I’m going to go back and get my privacy certifications because I’d like to move.” I think that’s a more objective, “I’m going to make this change. I’m going to do it very intentionally.”
There are other things. I’m going to show up to these industry events. I’m going to reach back out to my friends who I’ve been so busy I haven’t had a chance to talk to. I think when we start to take those little steps to make a change in our life, and we start to think like change is possible. It is possible for me to be there and to do things differently and to get to a place where I have more delight and joy in my day. When we start to see the world like that, there’s a little part in our brain called the Reticulating Activation System, the RAZ. It’s the thing like when you get pregnant, then you see all sorts of pregnant people. When you buy a red car, then you see all the red cars.
It’s that thing. What it does, it’s the filter. Apparently, we get like 11 million messages a day. The RAZ is what filters it for us. When you go through the day, and this is while the people who do the self-affirmations before they go to sleep, or the secret like the world has good things coming to me. I expect the best from the world. I know things will improve. The people who frame that for their brain, the self-compassion and the self-talk, this is not like super Berkeley and super woo-woo, this is all straight up fricking science.
I love this. Keep going.
The RAZ is basically like, when you talk to yourself and you say, “I know today is hard, but I also know it’ll get better. I know tomorrow will be easier because I’ve learned this today. I know that there’s something else out there and I’m going to take the steps I need to take to find it. I know it may take a while but it’s worth it for me to have a job that honors and respects and pays me well, and I’m going to go find it.”
When you start to put that energy in the world, when you start to put that intention in the world, the RAZ system in your brain starts to filter the messages. You’re getting messages that align with it. When you say the world is F-ed up, everything is crap, everything is wrong, although right now, the world that we live in, it would be hard to not conclude that that’s partly true. I’ll say that. I’m not perfect at this. I can send you something. I think I am a black hearted optimist. I can really be all the way. I can be neck deep in the stuff, but my question always is, “What am I going to do about it?” It doesn’t mean it’s not true, but it’s not a tattoo. It’s a day.
You’re getting out of the stuck. I think even your mantras, I always say to my kids, “The most important things you say are the things you say to yourself.” If there’s a possibility that we could implement this positive, and I think especially as moms, giving yourself a positive chance that things are going to be better or the universe is bringing me good stuff, there is such power in that. If it also has some brain function shift that is proven data, that’s even more exciting. I didn’t know about that.
It’s the reason why parenting the second is so much easier than parenting the first because as hard as it was to get the first one through 18 months to 3 years, when you get to the second one, you’re like, “I know how this goes. I don’t need to be like, ‘I am never going to have a night’s sleep again.’” You know that you probably won’t have great sleep for a little while, but you also know you’re not just hopeful, but it’s going to be fine.
I think that’s why surrounding yourself by people who are a stage or two ahead of you, like when your kid’s in ninth grade and they’ve got kids who are juniors and seniors in high school and you’re absorbing their wisdom because you’re a woman and you’re smart. You’re willing to take other people’s wisdom in a way that teenage boys are not.
That’s how it goes. I would say surround yourself by people who are not 400 steps ahead of you but people who are 3 or 4 steps ahead of you and watch what works well and listen to what did not work well. Make the decisions that you can because other people’s lives can be such a great source of instruction and guidance and cautionary tale. I know sometimes I’ve been both. I’ve both been both inspiration and cautionary tale. We all have been.
Tapping Into Inspiration: Sharing Truths And Learning From Others
Yeah, but I think that’s what’s incredible about just tapping into, and even that’s one of the things why we were connected again. It’s because I was describing what I wanted and what I was seeking. Laura Fontana was like, “She’s got that. You should talk to her.” I just feel like it’s so invigorating that you’re willing to share also. That makes you extra special because not everyone has to. I feel like what part of that gives you fulfillment.
Stop and think about it. You’re looking at me saying you’re such an inspiration, but here you are putting on this show and you’ve got to understand you’re an inspiration to the women who are reading. I think we look forward to the people we’re inspired by, and again, we’re not really aware. When you said, “This show exists because of you,” I’ve got goosebumps because I don’t think most of us walk around going, “I’m an inspiration and people want to be me.” That’s not how most of us are built.
Other people's lives can be such a great source of instruction, guidance, and cautionary tale. Share on XI wish we did, but yes.
I think that what we hold is true is sometimes inspiration to someone else. A lot of times, we also have achievement amnesia like, “I did all that, sure, but now I’m focused on what I want to do next.” We have Imposter Syndrome. I think a certain amount of self-doubt motivates you. There’s helpful stress, there’s hermetic stress and there’s debilitating stress. I think there’s some self-doubt that goes, “I’m going to do it,” like it’s motivating. There’s some self-doubt that makes you sit in the corner in a dark room. There’s some folks who are inspiring because they’re a few steps ahead of you or cautionary tale because there are a few steps ahead of you.
I’ve been that for other people as they’ve reported to me, but not because that was my intent. It was because I was sharing my truth. I think when you’re honest about the good and the bad and the ugly and everything in between, people take inspiration from it, but not because that’s what your intent is. If I tend to that conversation with you a year ago and said, super condescending, “I’d really like to inspire you to emulate,” that would’ve been horse crap.
First of all, that’s not how I roll. Second of all, I just come from a place of I’ve made so many mistakes. There are some things that I’ve learned and I clinging to them because I too have achievement amnesia. I too have, hopefully, productive self-doubt, not debilitating self-doubt. That is the benefit of 30-plus years in a profession that is a real kicker sometimes.
Achievement Amnesia & Authenticity: Lessons From Mothering
It goes back to what is so beautiful is that level of authenticity and being willing to share the mess because we’re all in a mess in some ways. We’ve all learned from our messes and cleaned ourselves up and moved on. I do think the people that are closest to me know what a crap show that I actually am underneath. What sometimes come off as a cool common collected strategy, they know it and they still love me and we walk together through it. I do think there is so much room for that. I love achievement amnesia, that’s a new term for me. With respect to your mothering, what do you think you forget that you did awesome? Is there anything that you can tap into that deep memory and say, “I got a couple of things right?”
I am maybe immodest enough to think that I did a lot of stuff right. I always tried to focus on balance and kindness. Balance in whatever task we were doing and being kind in the world because without being a pushover, without being a doormat, I think helping my kids understand that they’ve got to walk their path. Instilling in them a sense of love and fun and humor.
There’s a great story. I have a selfie now. I don’t think that’s going to be surprised to anyone who’s read any portion of this. I’m at the playground with my oldest at this point, who’s four. He’s standing on a play structure and there’s a bunch of moms standing behind me, but I don’t realize it. I’ve told him multiple times that we’ve got to go. We’ve really got to go. I go, “You get down from there, I’m going to cut you into pieces and I’m going to put you in a slow cooker and I’m going to serve you up on bun.” He is like, “Mom.”
All of a sudden, he catches the glance of these ladies behind me. I don’t realize it. All of a sudden, he looks up, he goes, “Don’t worry. She’s totally kidding.” I think to myself, understanding that, you probably shouldn’t threaten to quarter your child, that’s probably bad parenting, but learning that there’s humor and it’s okay to joke around. There’s some things you don’t joke around about and I totally get the bright line. It’s time to leave a playground. I was okay with that. I think the sense of fun and delight. The world is going to be challenging, but it’s filled with so much joy and delight. I think that’s what I tried to impart.
The world is going to be challenging, but it's filled with so much joy and delight. Share on XI love that. You are a delight. I have to ask one last question, and you can say it’s off limits. I didn’t even preview this one with you, but the name of the show is The Mothers in Law, and we’re spinning on some of the population that I know I’ve learned a lot from my mother-in-law. If you’re willing to comment on anything that you’ve learned from your mother-in-law, or if she’s inspired or driven you crazy, you can share whatever you’d like that’s obviously authorized for the world to know.
My mother-in-law has now passed. There’s no one on her family to read this. I will tell you. She lived 7,000 miles away. My husband is from Spain. His mom lives in Seville or did live in Seville. My whole thing was that we were not at all the same person. When I would ask her stories about when she was young to help me understand how she raised my husband, sometimes successfully, Carrie.
You had a big project.
She would come to visit and I’m sure she was just horrified that I wasn’t a stay-at-home mom living to serve her child. She clearly loved her family, so I really respected her devotion to her family. My devotion to my family looked different but I never dishonored the way that she lived. This is somebody who lived through the civil war, lived through Franco, lived under very different pressures to the ones that I had. I always tried to see her intent. Even when the execution was not exactly what I would’ve loved, I tried to see the intent and ignore the parts that were less charming.
That’s amazing. I think that’s a very successful operation of the mother-in-law dynamic because I always say two women loving the same man is a very dangerous situation. It sounds like you had some success underlying that. I can’t thank you enough. This has been an incredible conversation and you are a delight and I’m so thankful that you’re in my life. I do thank you for inspiring this show. I know it’s going to help a lot of people, so more good that you’re doing in the world. Thank you so much, Sue. You’re the best.
Thank you.
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About Sue Bunnell
Sue Bunnell brings over 30 years of experience across legal, operations, risk, and professional development — with a career that’s as eclectic as it is impactful. She’s been everything from tech attorney to enterprise advisor, board member to Executive Director, speaker to coach. No matter the role, Sue leads with kindness, candor, and professionalism — all served with her signature #SaltyWisdom.
Sue began her career in technology transactions, where she led Latin American antipiracy efforts and legislative reform for the Business Software Alliance, even serving as the U.S. Trade Representative to Paraguay in 1997. She went on to advise top tech clients in Silicon Valley, then took on in-house roles at AltaVista and, for the past 20+ years, at Wells Fargo. There, she’s held numerous roles in law, risk, compliance, and operations — now serving as an advisor to the Chief Administrative Office.
As a career catalyst and self-advocacy coach, Sue delights in helping people get unstuck, find their voice, and create fulfilling, intentional career paths. She’s a sought-after speaker and facilitator on topics like confident communication, managing up (without the ick), and the art and science of resumes, LinkedIn, and interviews.
Whether she’s in the boardroom or leading a workshop, Sue is a fierce believer in meaningful career evolution — and sometimes, full-on revolution. She’s also a proud mom to two amazing young men, and brings that same mix of love, humor, and hard-earned wisdom to every part of her life.
