For years, lawyer parents—especially mothers—have intuitively felt the immense challenges of balancing career and caregiving. Now, the data is in. We dive into the landmark ABA Parenthood in the Legal Profession Study with two leaders behind the research, Stephanie Scharf and Bobbi Liebenberg. Based on responses from 8,000 lawyers, this study provides the numbers and nuances behind some hard truths: motherhood carries a measurable career penalty, caregiving disproportionately impacts women’s advancement and compensation, and flexibility often comes with unintended negative consequences for leadership and visibility.
But this conversation isn’t just about what’s broken. Scharf and Liebenberg share actionable strategies for individuals, law firms, and bar associations to intentionally shift the narrative, moving toward an environment where parenting is celebrated as a leadership strength, not a liability. Read on to learn how we can all be called to act to make the legal profession better for mothers and for lawyers.
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The Motherhood Penalty In Law: How The Landmark ABA Study Puts Numbers Behind Lawyer Parents’ Careers With Stephanie Scharf And Bobbi Liebenberg
Landmark ABA Study Introduction
This episode is one that I have been especially excited to bring you because we are diving into data that finally puts numbers, nuances, and credibility behind what so many lawyer parents, especially mothers have felt intuitively for years. I am joined by two incredibly impressive contributors Stephanie Scharf and Bobbi Liebenberg. They are two leaders in the legal profession and the minds behind the landmark ABA parenthood in the legal profession study along with numerous other studies.
This particular study was a national effort and it drew responses from 8,000 lawyers that focused on examining how parenthood, not just gender, shapes careers in law. I’ll be honest. They’re findings confirm some very hard truths that motherhood still carries a measurable penalty. Caregiving disproportionately impacts women advancement and compensation. That flexibility essentially comes with unintended consequences for visibility and leadership.
This conversation is not just about what is broken, but about what works. We talk about actionable strategies for all of us to figure out how to navigate our careers more intentionally and begin to ship that narrative. Being a parent isn’t recognized as a liability but also as a leadership strength. I am beyond thrilled for what is to come and to share with everybody these two wonderful legends that have taken on some challenging topics and helped us all see. Also, calling us to act to make this much better for moms and for lawyers. Thank you so much, Bobbi and Stephanie, for participating in the show.
We’re passionate about this subject. We’re excited to have this conversation.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, Carrie, for your gracious and generous introduction. It is a pleasure to be here. We’re very happy to speak on a topic that’s near and dear to Bobbi and me. Which is, how women navigate their careers, what impediments they face. Most importantly, not just what lawyers can do but what law firms and corporations and bars associations can do to help eliminate the impediments that mothers face much more frequently than fathers.
Bobbi and I are both lawyers and mothers. We had many challenges in those dual roles at a time when part-time was not an option for several reasons. As we navigate our careers, we see many situations where women could have stayed at work and could have advanced at the same rate as men. The structures, standards and policies were dominated by values that were not a good fit for parenting.
I remember I was in a large firm from my beginning years as an associate and a partner. Slowly, I saw women leave. All the women in my class basically left. When you asked this of your partners, “Why is she leaving?” They say, “She wants to go home and take care of her kids.” When you asked the mother why she was leaving, she basically said, “I can’t take it here. I’m going to another job.” That’s certainly stuck in my mind. I know Bobbi has had a number of experiences as a mother also that she may want to bring us in the loop about.
The Catch-22: Ideal Worker Versus Ideal Mother
Thanks, Stephanie. There were two important experiences that I had that influenced why we wanted to do this study. First, I had my first child when I was a second-year law student. Which, by the way, is a great time to have a child. It was not great though interviewing. I had finished a clerkship on the Fourth Circuit in Richmond Virginia. At the time, there were only about ten practicing women lawyers in the entire city. I was asked questions, including, did I have children, how many children did I intend to have, and why should I be hired. It was clear I would ultimately just quit and go take care of my family.
Although, that was many years ago. In our study, we found that these are still questions that permeate in terms of how women get hired. This deep-seated cultural and societal conflict between the ideal worker, the ideal lawyer who is available 24/7 to their clients and to their firms or their other legal employers and the ideal mother who was always available to her children puts women in a catch-22. The next experience I had that all so influenced how we approached this study. I was at two big law firms in my second firm where I did make partner.
I was on the associates committee. I got a chance to see my associate evaluations because I was on the committee. I have three children and there was a notation. In my second year, I had to miss a client meeting because I had to take one of my children to the emergency room. It never happened again. Yet when I looked through my evaluations year after year until I made partner, there was a comment about the fact that I was committed enough to be a partner at this firm since I had missed this major client meeting because of my children. Again, this perception of the lack of commitment that mothers have because they have children is something that permeates throughout our research.
It’s devastating to hear those stories and I know we think things have changed. I’m like, “That would never happen.” I also heard that happening even to this day. I’m excited to hear how we’re going to solve this, but I appreciate your tips. Did you both have your children in law school? Which is fascinating.
I just had one in law school.
I had one in law school also in the middle of Tax class, I might add.
Your child gave you a favor.
I had another one when I was an associate and I had my third when I was a partner. To Stephanie’s point, there was no part-time. You either worked full-time or you did not work. There were no policies about taking parental leave. It’s one thing I always tell younger lawyers why you should aspire to become a leader because you can frame policy. When I got pregnant, I drafted the parental leave policy and other policies for the firm.
That’s incredible. That’s a good note to anyone out there that’s struggling to take that on if you find a deficit. There’s a lot of people that will help you with that. One of the things is, you can draft the policy by getting it to be implemented, respected, and honored. I feel like maybe that’s part of the barrier to conversation that makes our environment as difficult as it is and still is now despite the reports that told us this is not working.
One of the things that we found in the survey and we’re going to get to that in a minute was that those policies are good for employers to implement. It means they keep talented people. Both for mothers but also fathers. It’s rational to implement policies that are parent friendly. Should we turn to studying?
It’s rational to implement parent-friendly policies. Share on XLet’s go. That sounds great.
The cover page of the first national study of parenting and legal careers that was ever done was sponsored by the American Bar Association Commission on Women. We did the work. Bobbi and I had a third investigator, Paulette Brown, who focused on focus groups. Bobbi and I were responsible for the survey, its design, implementation and analysis on that part of the report. The report is free online at AmericanBar.org. It’s called Legal Careers of Parents and Child Care Givers.
We were very happy after we filled the survey and got the results first. We got a very large number of survey respondents. It was over 8,000 and they came from all practicing settings such as law firms, in-house law departments, public interest groups, not-for-profits, the judiciary, military lawyers even and some academics. It was a nicely representative sample of the profession. The median age of respondents was 42.
Many were at the age when they were in their prime child care years. We got a much larger percentage of women than men that probably says something about the interests of women. Particularly in this topic, 77% of respondents were women and 23% were men. In the analysis, we weighted it to population statistics. Our statistics are representative of the legal population as a whole. We also got a good mix proportional to the professional as a whole of people with racial and ethnic identities. Eighty-four percent of the people who answered the survey were married or living with a committed partner. We had a nice mix of people. A very good data set for analysis. Let me turn to Bobbi to talk about a set of findings that were very interesting.
Negative Experiences And The Death By 1,000 Cuts
I’ll also add. If you have trouble getting the study from the ABA, you can go to our consulting group, the Red Bee Group and also download it for free. It may be easier to find. I encourage people to do this. It’s an important study. As Stephanie said, it’s the first of its kind that has looked at this issue. To your point, Carrie. What’s important about data is that we all know these experiences are happening. By having the data, it confirms you’re not crazy.
Some statistics are pretty depressing. It’s clear that mothers have way more negative experiences than fathers. Let’s just drill down a little bit on the data. Regardless of practice setting, which is important. It didn’t matter if mothers were in law firms or in academia or nonprofits. They all had these experiences, in which 61% of mothers received demeaning comments about being a working parent. Sixty percent were perceived as less committed to their careers. It’s something I had experience with.
Forty-three percent of mothers lacked access to business development opportunities compared to 20% of fathers. Forty-one percent of mothers were perceived as less competent than 15% of fathers. Thirty-seven percent of mothers were denied a salary increase or a bonus compared to 22% of fathers. We also found that mothers weigh more than fathers. We’re denied access to sponsors and mentors because they had children.
Other lawyers would not consider them for mentorship or sponsorship because it’s the fear that they were going to leave the law firm. Mothers had trouble being assigned to important matters or being assigned to matters with travel. Again, this is something I hear all of the time. It may even be that it’s not conscious that you’re not assigned to this matter that requires travel. I’m thinking of you. You’ve got these kids. I know you may not want to travel. As I always said, as someone with three children. A night in a hotel where I could order room service and watch television for the night. I was willing to travel. I was willing to do it.
In an airplane by yourself working? We’d all sign up for that. That’s a great point.
Don’t make assumptions. That because someone has children, they may not want this assignment or they may not want to travel. Thirty-six percent of our mothers reported being denied or overlooked for advancement or promotion compared to 22% of fathers. Twenty-two percent of mothers compared to just 3% of fathers were advised to stay home or put their careers on hold after having a child.
Don’t make assumptions that someone with children won’t want a particular assignment or may not want to travel. Share on XI want to explain about our survey. We had focus groups. In addition to our survey questions, we had a number of open-ended questions. Many of the comments that you read in the report and we’re going to amplify some of them. I encourage people to read these comments. It is heartbreaking what mothers have experienced at work.
They provide important flavor and color in terms of our study. Only 14% of mothers didn’t have at least one of these negative experiences. Only 14% compared to 31% of fathers who had never had a negative experience. These negative experiences have a domino effect. If you’re not committed or not perceived as competent or not getting the big important matters, it’s going to impact your compensation and your advancement. It amounts to a death by a thousand cuts, which ultimately makes women want to leave their law firms and even the profession.
When you say that, “The death by a thousand cuts,” it triggers. It’s been heartbreaking. Even as part of this show, to sit with people who some for the very first time have ever shared and reflected on some of the poignant questions that you’re targeting in your study. They’re sitting across from me and we’re asking, “What was hard about this?” They process. A lot of times, what I’ve noticed is all those things, not being confident and not feeling confident leads to some mental health issues. That not only impacts that woman but impacts her family in a profound way.
It’s hard to be an awesome mom when you feel like that at work. That’s where formulating a plan to mitigate that to help people feel confident and strong. You’re doing an amazing job. You’re going to get these opportunities because you’re an amazing lawyer without regard to being overlooked for different opportunities because of your mom. That death by a thousand cuts is cumulative. Sometimes you don’t pay attention to the little cuts. Even your study calls us to open our eyes and see what those look like along the way. Rather than waiting and being like, “I’m out of here.” That’s where a lot of women end up.
I’ll say this death by a thousand cuts is amplified by everything that mothers are doing.
One of the things I wanted to add to this is it’s not just the women who have children who are burning out and have difficulty having the same levels of well-being. We heard terribly sad comments from women who said, “I knew I wanted to be a lawyer and have a career. I thought I’d put off having children.” By the time they made partner, they couldn’t have children. It was so painful and so sad that that’s the choice they had to make. It’s not a choice that men make very often if it all. It’s very visible for women.
I was one of those women. I waited until I was 36 and it was one of the darkest periods in my life. I went into clinical intervention but I feel for those women. They live and carry that absence of something they wanted because they were pursuing something else that matters as well. It calls me to remember. I want to do something to address that because it’s such a gap. We want those people that have children and to have the experience and put more people like that on the planet. That’s the other part of it.
It’s a real tender tension. I do remember I had a lawyer at one of the big law firms. I was 27. She bought me a book about infertility. I was like, “Lady, I don’t need this book.” She was trying to warn me because I was a go-getter, “You’re going to miss out unless you plan ahead.” It was ironic to me that I suffered through that experience. My heart goes out to women that are on the track and it doesn’t happen for them. That’s an extra grief that we lose in addition to all the other things that you’ve mentioned that you’ve uncovered in the study. It’s an extra negative consequence of being a professional woman.
Mothers Bear The Double Duty And Mental Load
Bobbi and I have studied the work that mothers do versus fathers do when they’re not practicing law. This was our latest research on this. It’s probably no surprise to many people in the audience but women do double duty. Mothers do double duty compared to fathers. Mothers overwhelmingly bear the burdens of child care and household responsibilities. This double duty also impacts the careers of mothers as compared to fathers.
For example, you can see that mothers are more than twice as likely to cook family meals. Mothers are more than five times as likely to attend extracurricular activities. Mothers overwhelmingly compared to father’s, 70% compared to something like 8%, arranged for medical care. Help with homework. Deal with child care. In the evening, deal with childcare. In the daytime, leave work for child care when there’s an emergency or even when it’s more routine. They leave work for child care and they overwhelmingly arrange for child care.
It’s clear that mothers also carry the mental load. It’s not just physical. It’s the mental load of arranging for these responsibilities. It certainly creates additional stress and time pressure on women lawyers with children. There’s a little bit of women from Venus and men from Mars to the State as well. We asked in the survey, whether the work that is done for child care and household care is shared with your husband or your partner.
We asked women “Is this work shared?” We asked men, “Is this work shared with your wife or your partner in the household?” The gender differences were striking. For example, 59% of fathers of dependent children reported that they shared responsibilities for arranging for child care and for household care. Only about half of their spouses felt that way. About half of mothers felt that their partners shared childcare responsibilities. The same thing, a lot of partners said they shared responsibility for leaving work early to take care of children and needs. Mothers said, “That’s not shared. I will do that.”
It reminds us of the very famous comment from Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who was herself a mother of two children while she practiced law. She said, “Women will have achieved true equality when men share with them the responsibility of bringing up the next generation.” We still have ways to go where there is equality in the household. Which has a tremendous impact on how your career progresses.
Women—especially mothers—carry a double burden, taking on more childcare and household responsibilities than fathers, which in turn impacts their careers. Share on XI want to add to the Ruth Bader Ginsburg story because there’s a very famous story where the school called her about her son who had some issue with school. She point blank said, “There are two of us. You should call my husband as well.” To her point, this is a shared responsibility. We wanted not just women to read this report but men and fathers, partners and managers. It’s so that they can see what women have to undergo in terms of this balancing of trying to fulfill both their professional and their family responsibilities.
It’s so true. A lot of women that I’ve talked to were much more thoughtful when they had a child about these things, even like a small shift. I was absorbing this idea that I am exactly the woman you just described. I do a lot and many times. For fun, I put my husband as the first person to call. He’s a school teacher. God bless us. He can’t leave twenty kids by themselves but at least he can know that there was an issue.
Setting it up for success so that there is some shift. I like to think that it will someday be more equal, but even the smaller shifts or micro shifts towards things like, “Why don’t you take care of all birthday parties?” That is amazing. It’s little things. When I hear data like that, immediately it’s like, you described me and how can I let go off? Some of us or these lawyers, to be honest, I am one of them. I like to think like I can do it all. I got this. I know how to navigate this. There is an aspect of it that I do take responsibility for but teaching us how to relinquish and having our partners read the article would be step one to say, “What do you think about this?” That might be a good next step.
Also, to let go. It may not be the perfect cupcakes that come to your kid’s birthday party or the perfect way you would do the wash. People won’t share unless you give them the responsibility and then just delegate it like you do your work.
It’s smart. It’s a good one.
Stress, Burnout, And Work-Life Disconnect
Talking about the death by a thousand cuts and the impact of that, Carrie. We constructed a burnout and stress index. It’s one of the first times that has been done as well. We based on the series of questions that are reflected, which says, stress and burnout in firms. Our hypothesis going into it was, given the negative comments women were experiencing and everything that they were trying to do to juggle their family and household responsibilities. They were stressed and burned out, but what we didn’t know was how much this was exacting a toll.
Seventy percent of mothers felt overwhelmed with things they had to do compared to just 41% of fathers. Sixty-nine percent of mothers experienced stress at work compared to 52% of fathers. Seventy-four percent of mothers experienced stress because of parenting responsibilities compared to 54% of fathers. Sixty-five percent of mothers reported feeling like their day never ends compared to 41% of fathers.
I know we have all experienced that. There’s just too much to do. The men are from Mars and women from Venus questions, we had a bunch of those with our stress and burnout indexes as well. Again, you saw this huge gender disconnect. Forty percent of fathers believe they’re doing a good job balancing their work and home responsibilities compared to just 17% of mothers. Again, a huge disconnect between what is happening.
We do know from other research that even on the weekend, for example, when there’s allegedly supposed to be some leisure time. Mothers are still doing far more of the responsibilities than fathers. Getting that recognition of what is this exacting on the stress and burnout. In the new catalysts survey that came out, it shows when you look at just women in the workforce over a half a million of women. Ages 24 to 45 left the workforce from January 2025 to August 2025. They pointed to the fact of lack of employer resources to help them with their parenting responsibilities, stress and burnout. This is not just confined to the law. If you look at the McKinsey reports, women in the workplace. This is going on where mothers are feeling this every single day.
It resonates. The thing I struggle with is that they’re doing all of it and feeling horrible about it.
We’re getting to them. We have debt on that, too.
I don’t let myself thunder but it’s daunting to me.
This reflects some data we gathered about whether parenting has or being a mother or father has a negative or positive impact on legal careers. Forty-eight percent of mothers compared to 21% of fathers feel that having children had a negative impact on their career. Another way to put it is, more than twice as many mothers as fathers felt that children had a negative impact on their career. We can see even from the data that we told you here. There are reasons why you’re doing double duty.
You can’t do it all. You stress out. Maybe you don’t get the exercise or the self-care that you need. Maybe you’re not visiting with your friends. You never go out and relax. It’s a cumulative effect that does end up having a negative impact for many mothers on their career. They get sidetracked. They don’t get promoted. They have to change jobs. Lots of changes and nuances that don’t affect fathers in the same way.
One of the things we found is that 33% of fathers compared to 19% of mothers felt that having children had a positive impact on their career. It made them more human and more accessible. It made them friendlier and softer. Not just all hard-edged. The same life experience that can be positive for men is not always experienced as positive for women. It is a problem. It’s a problem that we will see later can be addressed by employers and by Bar Associations. Not only individuals.
I went to Catholic School growing up. When I was about to get engaged, the Head Mistress, Sister Barbara, was over at my parent’s house and said, “She wasn’t very excited for me.” She pulled me over into the living room and she said, “Are you sure about this?” I said, “I want to get married and I want to have children.” She’s like, “Are you sure?” I said, “Yes.” She’s like, “It’s because this whole thing is not that great for the women.”
I was taken aback by that to have a nun who obviously chose a different path tell me. Every once in a while, it hits me. It is a struggle that I don’t think that my husband’s experience the same way that I have. Maybe it’s in the way I’ve done it if I’m being reflected or because of some of the constraints or the realities of the environment that we are working in. I always pause and I’m like, “With your data, Sister Barbara would probably give you a thumbs up.” I knew that already.
Structural Barriers, Not Lack Of Ambition, Drive Women Out
In fact, we referenced our prior research on walking out the door, which looks at why all lawyers practice fifteen plus years. We’re looking at more senior lawyers of what the disproportionate rate of attrition for women lawyers versus male lawyers. The number one reason why experienced women lawyers leave their law firms is because of the stress of taking care of children. Their children are older.
Most of them have been practicing fifteen plus years, but that was the number one reason. Which was something that was surprising to us. What’s also important to emphasize is not because of a lack of ambition or their opting out. This is because of the structural features that are in many legal organizations that don’t support parents and don’t support mothers with children that are driving them out the door.
It’s not due to a lack of ambition or women opting out—it’s the structural features in many legal organizations that fail to support parents, especially mothers, that drive them out the door. Share on XTo your point, Carrie. Again, given the stress, the negative experience, and all the anecdotal comments we received. It was not surprising that mothers were three times more likely than fathers, 48% versus 17% to feel guilty about working full-time. I experienced that when you would drop your child off at daycare or with a babysitter. As soon as you dropped them off they were fine but it stayed with you all day worrying about that. Feeling guilty about not being present at work and home. How do you balance that?
As Stephanie said, 48% of mothers reported postponing having children because of career concerns compared to 26% of fathers. It was not only mothers who postponed, but after they had children, what were the kinds of comments that they received from their colleagues? I’m going to emphasize two of them. One woman said, “Having children was discouraged in our office because it impacts productivity.” Another one said, “I would be iced out by the partners and my work would dry up if I had children.” This is what women have to balance and what they have to face in making these decisions.
I’m excited to get to the part where you tell us what to do and make it better. Do you think it’s good to pause and recognize that these are not isolated? There are 8,000 people sharing different stories and different perspectives that led into this data. Which I appreciate that exists to support how we’re going to make it better.
One of the things that Bobbi and I have written about in this report rather extensively is the importance of flexibility in work arrangements. We’re very aware that there is a growing trend to require. Lawyers return to the office. Not just three days a week, but often 4 or 5 days a week. Given the findings in our report about parenting. In office requirements, particularly impact women with children not in a good way. It may impact the ability of employers to retain women with children.
What we found is a need for flexibility about the required number of in-office days. For example, one of our findings was the positive impact of allowing hybrid and remote working. There was a great positive impact on individual well-being. The ability to balance work and family obligations had a very positive impact not just on mothers, by the way. It’s our mothers and fathers. Seventy-six percent of mothers reported that if they could work in a hybrid way, that enhanced their well-being and 74% of fathers with dependent children have the same reaction.
We need the ability to balance work and family obligations in a hybrid way that works for us. Now, it’s not all up because there are some prices that individuals pay for hybrid working. A majority of both mothers and fathers of dependent children, especially fathers. They were concerned about diminished professional networking. About half of fathers and mothers of dependent children were concerned about feelings of isolation.
Overall, we think that automatically saying, “It’s good for the business for everybody to come in five days a week.” It is and it isn’t good for the business. It may be good because people are there but it’s not so good if over time you lose highly trained experienced lawyers who say, “I don’t have to work like this anymore. There are other places I can go.” They would go.
Also, you have to look at who’s making this policy. It’s generally older men who have either stayed at home wives or their children are grown. They’re the ones saying, “We need to be in the office five days a week.” There was a 2025 work monitor report that showed that younger workers will trade money to have better work-life balance to have the ability to be home. That is something that gives me more optimism. I saw it with my own son who wanted to take paternity leave.
A lot of younger men do want to share these responsibilities more equally and are doing so. They face the same biases because a man who takes paternity leave is acting against gender stereotypes. Therefore, they face the same biases that many women face. We have to encourage everyone to take their parental leave. We have to encourage both mothers and fathers to be active. This is good for their children and it’s good for their places of employment.
That’s an aspect of this that is important to draw into, especially having your partner be able to support from the get-go and see this is a joint project of sorts. There is value. There is tremendous value in that. I do think there is that opportunity to support that decision for the fathers as well. Generationally, there is like, “What is the dad doing?” I always say things like, “I hope for everything.” Fingers crossed. It is another aspect that we need to be sensitive to and encourage.
Actionable Strategies And Leadership Policies
We’re getting to the part, which as Stephanie said and we’re going to talk about this also in best practices. What’s very unique about this report is that we have data that shows that law firms and other legal employers institute the types of programs that are reflected. They will be successful at advancing women into leadership. For those in law firms, they will be successful at advancing women into equity partnership.
The question is, why aren’t more employers and law firms doing this? The data supports there are ways to ensure that you’re going to have women all through the pipeline from the beginning, through the middle and to the end. You have sufficient leaders in legal organizations that can take the charge of matters and be first shares of trials and leads on deals. If you don’t do that, there is going to be that vacuum that Stephanie talked about.
If you look at these policies, mentoring and sponsorship programs. Seventy-four percent of women reported that their organization that had this policy was successful. Written succession policies, 72% of women reported if you did that, that would be a great policy to advance women in leadership. Leadership and management training and implicit bias training with respect to this pervasive motherhood bias.
There’s deep research that shows that an indication of being a mother can result in not getting a call back for a job and being offered less in salary. Again, this ideal worker, ideal lawyer versus the ideal mother is very much entrenched in our society and in our culture. These policies work. We hope that our audience members will take them to their bar associations. They’ll take them to their employers and say, “We’ve got data. If we do and we can implement these programs, you’re going to see that women will stay and they’ll advance.”
We’ve talked a little bit about this. Our firm is built to support working parents. We call ourselves mothers and fathers practicing law. I get very validated in even looking at your checklist and your recommendations. I’m also going to make sure that we are doing that extra mile. I also want to just speak to the audience to tell them that we have built a very successful firm. It’s been around for many years.
There’s flexibility and support for you as a parent. Our firm retreats are percolating around giving people encouragement and support to find themselves while they’re being a parent. To me, it’s so natural. If you’re at a firm now that doesn’t have what I’m offering you, I’m happy to share some of these ideas. They’re not significant lists but it’s about honoring the humanity in the place and the season that the parents that are at your firm are at.
That is something that has provided not just tremendous value as having a successful firm, but there is no greater loyalty than a working parent who feels seen, heard and respected. I haven’t seen it yet and I feel blessed with people I get to work with. We’ve set something up for them that supports where they’re at. It’s possible.
We need to advertise firms that are successful doing this. People will say, “This can’t be done. Your firm is proof of that.” I believe my firm and I know Stephanie feels that about her firm as well. There are firms that are living by their values and implementing cultures that provide this support. That is the way to practice law and be happy.
I agree.
Policy Implementation Requires Dialogue With Employees
One thing that I also want to add to what Bobbi was saying. These were top policies in our survey, but there were a lot of other policies that lawyers found to help promote women into leadership roles and help promote women who are mothers into partner roles. One of the things we’ve learned through our other research is, the best way to find out what policies will work is to ask people. Don’t just talk to members of the management committee. Talk to everybody who could be involved and benefited or not when you’re thinking about a policy.
Some policies, for example, an affinity group for mothers or on-ramp programs after having children. You come back slowly or subsidies for child care or family care or subsidies for tutoring. There are many others in our report. One of the reasons why we’re very keen on talking to people, not just guessing or talking to your senior leader peers. In walking out the door, we asked senior women and managing partners and senior men, “How successful is your firm in advancing women into partnership and putting women into leadership roles?” Also, several other questions like that.
Ninety percent of the managing partners and senior men thought they were doing great. We asked the senior women, only about between 48% and 52% of senior women thought the firm was doing great. That’s because people aren’t talking across each other and talking across implicit barriers the way they should be. The best way for affirm or a company or an agency to figure out what they should do. We know we have a problem. We’re not keeping women. We’re not keeping mothers. What should we do? Talk to the people who you want to help and they’ll get lots of ideas.
What are the questions? Do you have a checklist or a hit list of questions? Even for our firms. Again, technically, I’m sitting in a management position that I should be asking. To make super sure there aren’t opportunities for improvement. Is there a list that you lead us to or maybe I can draft one up and we can all look at or figure out? Sometimes at a barrier.
That’s a good point. The Red Bee Group does work like that for firms. We do advise about the best way to communicate with, take on, adopt and implement policies. We track it over time to make sure it’s working. If it isn’t, we advise people on how to pivot.
The Necessity Of Guilt-Free Flexible Work Schedules
Carrie, it’s a great question about, what are the questions we should be asking? What are the best practices we should be looking at? We encourage all of the audience to go to our best practices which is something that we do in all of our reports. Our first recommendation is that you need leadership from the top. You need leadership who are engaged and who are role models for this type of behavior. They’re not asking where you were when you left to go pick up your children. They’re also talking about, “I had to leave a meeting because my child was in the emergency room. This is how I handled it. I had to go and make sure that my child got to the doctor because my wife is also working. I want to do that.”
Having leaders be held accountable and implement policies that do support parents. We’ve identified some of those. They are accountable for ensuring that they’re being implemented and there’s someone looking at them. They’re tweaking them if they’re not working how they want. They’re looking at how they can be good leaders and stewards for parents. Not just mothers, but for fathers, for mothers and their role models.
They need transparent goals and benchmarks. I’m going to say, what’s important as a policy is our flexible work schedules. We know from all of our research that without flexibility, women are going to either leave to look for jobs that have that flexibility, or leave the profession. You need to have that flexibility to be able to take care and perform. We also know from our data that it does not. I want to stress, it does not impact productivity.
It doesn’t impact the quality of the work. I would argue you have better mental health and better results because people start working at like 7:00 in the morning. They don’t commute for two hours. They work when it makes sense. They can take off to take their child to the doctor and not be guilty about it. Come back and work when it makes sense. Flexibility is one of the most important recommendations that should be implemented.
I agree. The one thing we did in there but I want to emphasize it because it’s something that we encourage even with our team. It’s guilt-free flexibility. Sometimes, you get the flexibility but then it’s not enjoyable because you feel like you always have to be on. The day starts at 6:00 AM when you have flexibility because they can. You can get a couple hours of work in before you wake your kids up sometimes.
When you’re with your kids, be with them. Be present and not feel like, “I should be looking at my phone checking if I get an email.” That’s part of it that I learned over time because you’ve been our firm 100% remote. In the beginning, I would be rushing home after music class to make sure I could attend to the emails in ten more minutes. Enjoy the ride home, It’s that balance training yourself to be guilt free in that flexibility. That’s important for people to know.
As firm leaders, what is an emergency? When do you have to send an email over the weekend? You can time your emails. If you can get sent out on Monday, if you want to write it over the weekend, fine. Be respectful of the flexibility schedule as you were saying. You don’t impose on weekends and after hours in the evening unless there’s a real emergency. I left my big law firm when I was at a camp visitation for my son and a senior partner was having a panic attack over nothing that couldn’t have waited. I spent the entire camp visit at that time. There were no cell phones in the camp office on the phone trying to calm him down. The next day I decided I was leaving the firm.
It’s those moments. That’s like enough is enough for a moment. Sometimes it depends on the lens you look through. I can’t get that time back that I spent in the office at the camp. It was an emergency. Another thing that we do in our firm is don’t send emails on Sunday. As you said, pick Saturdays and whatever day you want. Pick a day that’s not a requirement to be present in that space. I love that.
We have a couple of other items here. One is greater parental resources and support for both women and men, the mothers and fathers. Sometimes a firm will say, “That’s expensive.” Again, it’s what you can consider expensive. Is it more expensive to provide some additional parental leave policies? Is it more expensive that you’ve trained someone for 3 or 4 years and they get sick of what they’re not getting from the firm and they leave?
You should not be afraid of data. It’s the most convincing way to know if you’re doing what you intend as an employer—and whether it’s having an impact on your people. Share on XTo us, the benefits are on the side of giving more generous parental resources and support. We were happy to see that a large number of men now take advantage of parental leave. The number was something like tripled from 2019 or 2020. There are benefits to onsite emergency child care and tutoring stipends. Senior lawyers can have a mentoring group of more junior lawyers who are parents and learn how to best strategize career goals and navigate successfully. Either working child issues or returning to the office after parental leave.
Employers that have resources with respect to child care or are highly favored by parents, both men and women. We think that there should be an open conversation in each workplace. What can we do? What is the cost? That’s a fair question. What is the cost in the short term? What is our gain? What can we do to support long-term careers for parents, both men and women? There’s another type of program that we’re high on. That is training programs, development programs, to support careers of women with children.
That’s something that Bobbi talked about. It’s in our report in detail what kinds of services and what kinds of support are needed to succeed. I come back to that because that’s in the hands of the employer. What can we do to help people succeed? Again, what can employers do to retain and advance women with children? We think it’s very important for people, firms, employers and organizations to use metrics to measure change and engage success.
You should not be afraid of data. It’s the most convincing way to know if you’re doing what you intended to do as an employer. It’s having an impact on the people in your workplace. Maybe you’d want to track the rate of attrition of women and men with children. Maybe you want to track who’s taking parental leave, how long, what is their reaction to it and how do they come back. Maybe you want to look at what happens when people come back from parental leave. What assignments do they get? What prospects are people saying they have for partnership? What is their compensation change over time?
You may also want to look at the impact if your firm allows it, of hybrid work on parents when they come back from parental leave or on new parents, even if they don’t go on leave. Somehow that’s making a difference. “When I came back from parental leave, I was not allowed to fill in the blank or I did not receive these opportunities.” We saw a lot of comments about it in our research. One is I was never put on a case anymore where I had to travel. I was never put on a case where they thought there would be intense trial work.
I was never put on a case where there was an intense deal. The perception of what happens when your mother unfortunately trickles down to the kinds of assignments you get. We think it’s very important as a part of metric to see, are people getting assignments equally? Whether they’re parents or not, or they’re fathers or mothers. How does parenting change the types of assignments that people get? Bobbi, I know you want to talk about a few more things.
I am thinking of having an on-ramp program so that there is a plan when a woman takes time off for maternity. There’s a plan when she comes back and you’re not just left out there. You come back and you’re not getting the types of cases or assignments Stephanie described. There was a great quote in the report which talked about how our managing partner has been exceptionally supportive of attorneys at our firm during pregnancy, maternity leave and upon return to work.
Her philosophy is that if women are not supported during these times, they will leave the profession. Her outlook and support has made the difference in making the transitions related to having children while making a career feasible. Again, going back to that leadership support. Carrie, talking about the firm philosophy and culture that your firm has created. When mothers and fathers feel supported, they will be loyal. They will stay and will work hard for themselves and for the firm.
It’s important. Even looking at some of the costs ratio that you were mentioning, Stephanie. Even the small act of helping and setting their children up for summer. That’s always a task that is overwhelming. Especially when you are a kid. Fifty outlets in different camps. This camp, who’s picking up? What time? Having someone step in and say, “Can I help you with that?” Those are small things that are life-changing. They will go to the point of that commentary. Having someone support you through those initial phases is such a smart idea from every angle.
There’s no reason not to do it, unless you just haven’t had the idea. Guess what? Thanks for reading, because you have all these ideas. There’s so many ways to make it better. I don’t want to cut short your presentation. I also want to be respectful of your time, but I do want to ask you just to wrap up our time together.
What does give you hope in light of all of the data that you’ve come across? All the stories, the anecdotes and the disappointments, quite honestly, that you learned in the course of stepping out and doing this research? What helps us look towards something? Even after the Catalyst stated just came out. Sharing that 500,000 women left the workforce. What gives us hope that this can get better?
The Business Case For Change And Flipping The Narrative
Programs like this and publicizing our report. It is time to flip the narrative. We talk about the motherhood penalty all the time. Claudia Goldin won the Nobel prize in Economics looking at the wage disparity for mothers and fathers as a result of the motherhood penalty. To me, if I’m an employer, the employee I want is a mother. Who but a mother is laser focused on how to be efficient and get the job done? Who but a mother has empathy and can lead your teams? Who but a mother has the grit and resilience no matter what to overcome the challenge?
To me, we have to celebrate what mothers bring to the labor market. As women and mothers, we have to be publicizing all of the amazing things that mothers can do if they get the support. They’re supported by their firms and organizations. They are supported by their colleagues and mentors and they stay in this wonderful profession.
We have to celebrate what mothers bring to the labor market. Share on XI love that. That’s a wonderful way to capture. It’s also a call to action as I sit here to take even a greater role in highlighting the incredible women or mothers that I’ve gotten to come across in the course of this work and in my life and career. There are so many out there, but we’re also a little bit on the humble and very busy side. Celebrate, show and share what this looks like and how it can be a wonderful thing. It makes you a better lawyer and a better impact in this environment.
I know Stephanie has words to close this out.
I’m going to close it out, but you may want to put what I’m about to say in a different part. It’s not quite as inspiring as what Bobbi and you said. I believe that executives and senior partners and leaders are mostly rational. If they look ahead to how society is changing, they are going to have to change their policies and practices.
It’s been several years now when over 50% of law school graduates are women. If all you’re doing is promoting men into partnership and let me just say, White men into partnership, you’re going to have a narrow set of people who are leaders and partner level lawyering in your firm or leaders in your company. There’s been a ton of research that shows that diversity enhances results.
If you end up with a firm or a business where once someone gets to the first leadership level like a first year partner. They’re looking around for a new job because they don’t want to live like that anymore. You’re going to be in trouble. The demography is going to be a big driver of change. It’s not just, “I want to do the right thing, and how can I make sure we have happy lawyers working here?” It’s, how are we going to survive if we are losing basically half the population of lawyers in America? It’s because we don’t have policies and practices that suit them.
This is a call to action. I want to thank you. I feel like we could definitely talk for a lot more about these issues and the passion that you bring to the table. I think that your research gives us something so powerful. Not just the validation, but a roadmap. I hope that everyone reading, whatever role you’re in, if you’re a managing partner, a new mom or lawyer, that you take this to heart. We all start moving towards creating an environment where being a mom, a parent and a lawyer is celebrated and seen as a positive.
Our systemic changes that can be made support that. I feel that I’m a much better lawyer because I am a mother and that’s something that is commonly shared. I also recognize that a lot of women have had it quite difficult in different environments that need to change to support what an incredible journey this has been. A heartfelt gratitude to both Bobbi and Stephanie for giving us your time and your wisdom. I will definitely share your reports and all the incredible data and analytics that you are doing to support all of us working moms out there. Thank you for joining us. We look forward to seeing you guys soon.
Thank you for this conversation, Carrie. It’s a great thing that you’re doing. This is a fabulous show.
Thank you for having us. We enjoyed it. Kudos to you.
Important Links
- Stephanie Scharf on LinkedIn
- Bobbi Liebenberg on LinkedIn
- The Red Bee Group
- Paulette Brown on LinkedIn
- American Bar Association
About Stephanie Scharf
Stephanie Scharf is a nationally recognized attorney, researcher, and thought leader on leadership, talent development, and the advancement of women in the legal profession—and a working mother who has long been at the forefront of studying how careers and caregiving intersect. As a Principal and Co-Founder of The Red Bee Group, Stephanie advises law firms, corporations, and organizations on building high-performing, inclusive cultures using data-driven strategies.
With more than 30 years of experience in complex litigation—including leadership roles at Kirkland & Ellis and Jenner & Block—Stephanie also founded a nationally prominent women-owned law firm, all while navigating the realities of raising a family alongside a demanding legal career. She holds both a Ph.D. in Behavioral Sciences and a J.D. from the University of Chicago, and her groundbreaking research on issues like retention, leadership, and working parenthood has helped shape national conversations about what it really takes for women—and mothers—to advance and thrive in law.
About Roberta “Bobbi” Liebenberg
Roberta “Bobbi” Liebenberg is a nationally recognized litigator, diversity advocate, and one of the leading voices advancing women in the legal profession—as well as a mother who has experienced firsthand the challenges of building a high-stakes career while raising a family. A Principal at The Red Bee Group, she partners with organizations to develop practical, data-driven strategies for growth, leadership, and inclusion.
Bobbi is also a senior partner at Fine, Kaplan and Black, R.P.C., where she has led high-stakes class action and antitrust litigation, including cases resulting in billion-dollar outcomes. A longtime leader within the American Bar Association, including serving as Chair of the Commission on Women in the Profession, Bobbi has been instrumental in driving research and policy focused on equity, advancement, and the realities facing women lawyers—especially those balancing the dual roles of professional and parent.
