Appellate law can be a demanding career, especially since it is about handling emotionally heavy cases like sexual, domestic, and child abuse. How can a mother deal with such a challenging occupation? Carrie Fogliani gets a glimpse of a mother’s life in appellate law with Holly Boyer, a partner at Esner Chang, Boyer & Murphy. She explains how she remains present for her family despite being at the frontlines of confidential legal procedures. Holly also shares how she discusses the uncomfortable aspects of her work with her children and how she welcomed her very special daughter into the world.
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When Life Doesn’t Go As Planned—And Becomes Something Better With Holly Boyer
Welcome back to the show, where we talk about what it really looks like to build a meaningful career and raise a family, and everything that comes along with it. I am extremely excited to be joined by Holly Boyer. She is a partner at Esner Chang, Boyer & Murphy, where she specializes in appellate law, which is by far one of the most intellectually rigorous and strategic areas of legal practice. Included on her resume are very significant and high-profile cases involving allegations against significant corporations and churches.
She is not just a respectable appellate attorney. She is a mother who has so much to offer us. She has navigated many of the same questions that we are also struggling with, of how to build a demanding career and be present to your family, how motherhood changes at all, and the way you lead, advocate, and even define success. We are so grateful to be joined by Holly, and I am so excited to hear what you have to share with us. Welcome.
How are you?
How Holly Found Her Way Into Appellate Law
We are doing great. I did want to just kick it off and learn a little more about how your path navigated you towards appellate law, which is such a unique and demanding aspect of the legal profession.
Most things in life, you get there by accident, and it is a happy accident. In law school, I really thrived. Before that, I was not a mediocre student, but just going along with it. Law school, it just hit my stride, and the research and the writing component of it, the advocacy of it, put me in a position where I knew I liked to write and to research, I knew I was good at it.
When I got my first job, I remember the partner who was interviewing me was looking at my resume and said, “You are really fit for the law and motion position. With your experience in moot court and law journal and all that stuff, that is where I see it.” I said, “Okay.” I went there and did that for a little bit, and then just really got into it and saw that it was a way to advocate and persuade through writing, and how interesting that is.
I did that for the first couple of years. I quickly moved from the defense to the plaintiff side of civil matters. It just felt right, just felt like where I needed to be. After a couple of years of doing some heavy law and motion and a couple of appeals, I realized the appellate world is really where I belong. I joined with my partners early on, and I have been doing appeals for most of my career, so about twenty years. I absolutely love it, which is not something a lot of people can say about.
We are lucky to say that because not everyone loves practicing law. I definitely share that feeling with you, and I am so happy it sounds like you found such a great fit. You have really represented such a unique group of individuals, focusing on those who have been the victims of sexual abuse. That is something that I feel like is not always easy to talk about. I can only imagine for the plaintiffs who have experienced that to have someone like you walking in, knowing that you are the one caring for their case, what drew you towards that?
That was interesting. It was a development in society of recognizing what that tort, what that injury looks like, and realizing that the laws that we have for other torts, other injuries do not fit the same. One of the biggest things with claims for sexual abuse and sexual assault is the statute of limitations, and how difficult it may be for someone to come forward. When you think about a child victim, which is primarily where I do my most work, it is victims who were children at the time.
I mean, how difficult would it be to come forward? One to even know it is wrong, two to know what to do about it, and to battle the feelings that can come along with an injury like that, the feelings of shame and everything thinking that it is their fault, that maybe this is not actually something that I can pursue, or if they are ready to pursue. Understanding more about what that looks like started happening in the world, and the law had to adjust accordingly.
It was one of those times where I was in the right place at the right time, where I could shepherd that as best I could or contribute whatever I could to that area just to say, “The way we have been doing it does not work in this context, and here is why.” Here is why we need these different ways to look at it, or why a traditional case applying a discovery rule might not apply in this situation. It was the timing.
One of the things I really love about appellate law is that you really have a hand in shaping the law. We are creating precedent. I always think that these victims that have come forward, and by the time you are on appeal, you have either lost, which is mostly the situation, and you are trying to get it reversed, or you are defending a win.
Appellate law is about shaping the law and creating precedent. Share on XThey have to be brave enough to then move forward in this space, which is very time-consuming, and takes a lot out of them to go ahead with an appeal. In that space is where change can happen because that is where you can tell the justices, “We need to re-look at this.” You get to make law, and then that will help other victims in the trial courts. It is an evolution of affecting change that I think can be very powerful to a victim and helpful in society for us to all recognize it.
It must be knowing what those individuals have endured to see that type of outcome. It has to be one of the most rewarding aspects of all your hard work, time, and effort to protect them and to advocate for them. Those moments, I do not know if you could ever share what that felt like as an attorney to accomplish something like that.
There have been a few moments in my career, and I remember one early on, it was a racial discrimination case where we had made a law in an area for employees suffering harassment at work. I remember telling the client what the legacy of his story will be and how it is in this published opinion for others to see. I remember he was tearing up, and it was such a powerful moment where I could see it as well, because most of my work is in a room with the door shut in front of a computer, writing.
I do not get to actually participate that much in the lives of my clients and in the courtrooms, and where the jury is looking at it. Instead, it is all on paper. Having those moments where you can really tell someone, like, even a loss, you are chipping away at ideas, you are getting things before the court that maybe they did not think of that could shape another case down the road. Even a loss is a way to move the discussion forward. It is powerful.
Balancing Motherhood And Appellate Law
I just want to shift and talk through that impact on some of those experiences of being a mom. At what point did kids arrive at the scene? Had you already been well underway in working on some of these cases, or was that exciting moment an additional aspect of your life that wove its way in?
I have always known I wanted to be a mom. I always knew that was really important. I went to law school really early and flew through, so I had already built up my career by the time I had kids. I had already been doing it for a good amount of time. With my first, so I have three kids, and I think with the first, it was the unknown, and how the heck do you do this, how do you juggle all this. It was probably the biggest learning curve at that time, just trying to figure out how to read briefs and write while you have a newborn next to you and you have no sleep.
The no sleep has really been something that to this day, I do not know why, I think it is a mom superpower that we can just plow through. I can stay up all night writing a brief, go to some parent-teacher conference in the morning, and then hit the ground running, still writing the brief the next day.
It is a superpower. It blows me away how little sleep I got when I look back, and I am getting at least six now, which feels amazing. There were definitely times when I used to say that if I could get past 4:00 AM, I could make it all the way. If you fall asleep at 3:45, I would crash out until 7:00, but it is a trick. It is definitely a way that we have been able to do it, unfortunately, sacrificing sleep, which I know is not recommended, and I get a lot of negative feedback about this part of my life. It is impressive that you can be called to that and do it.
Depending on what type of law each of us is in, at least for me, I shape the work around it. If I know I have a huge thing coming up, there will be those all-nighters, there will be those moments where I cannot be with my kids, and they will be looking around like I have not seen you in three days, why are you in that room all the time with the door shut working? I will miss events, but then I will come out from under it, and then I can really be there, and I can be present, and I can put in the time and do things that we enjoy together that mean something.
That is important. How do you make sure that creating that quality time, that balancing of recognizing there are going to be three days when you have to be all in. You are in a unique realm of this where there are deadlines that are hard deadlines that demand that level of focus and attention that make it difficult to throw in a load of laundry or make dinner. Is that accurate? It is really not possible to stay in your zone.
When you are in a situation where you have to research and write, you need to get going. If I have to watch my daughter and stay home, I cannot write because what will happen is even just saying coming in for a glass of water or “Can you change this? Can I have lunch?” Just these little moments will disrupt the flow of writing. I have to physically get myself out a lot of times. I will go into work, or I probably do most of my really, what I consider to be my best writing, at night, in the middle of the night, because it is quiet. The house is quiet. I have no emails coming in, and I can just go.
That is essential deep work time, the midnight hours, unfortunately, but at least you know when to do it.
As you said, it might not be the healthiest, but at the same time. As long as we know how to work in some moments of self-care, moments of taking care of children. One of the things I have done with my kids from the beginning is to be really honest with them about what is happening. “This is what I am doing. This is I am working on this.” I will tell them about the cases, and I will tell them about the deadlines.
They have seen me cry, they have seen me get overwhelmed, they have seen me in all these different ways, and I think I want them to know that I am human. “This is really hard, and the reason why I am not with you is that I am doing this hard thing that I love and it means something to me.” I want them to feel that when they get older, when they find work, to really find something that they can do for hours and makes them feel good and makes them feel challenged, or whatever it may be.
It is so meaningful, it is so meaningful, and I really love that transparency because some of us, even me included, used to hide that I even worked from my kids for a period of time. They did not really get that I worked until COVID. You are just sitting in front of the computer all day long. That is what I do. Before that, at one point, my daughter told her teacher that I was a baker because I just got it done when they were sleeping or at school. Coming to the forefront is so much healthier, and it also brings them in on it. They are part of it, and they know you need their support to do your job really well, and it is such a great model. I love that. How old are your kids now?
They are 15, 12, and 9. You are in that season. We are getting into the older side, but I think it has gotten more and more fun. Telling them about it, telling them about the cases, even their reaction sometimes helps me be a better lawyer because they will say, “Why would this not happen, or what about this, or maybe they were thinking this.” It is a great barometer of, “I did not think of that because you are so in the weeds of something, but hearing their input helps.”
They love us, they know, we love them, we support them, they love and support us. The compassion that they are capable of at a young age, where if they see me lose a big case or be really bummed about something or feel really frustrated by something, the way they show up is just incredible, and it is like I am going to cry. It is like opportunities for them to show up and have me lean on them in some ways. Not that I am doing that.
In a healthy way, it is important. It is important, and I love seeing those little nuggets of their compassion and caring about their mom, which, honestly, I hate to admit this, I do not think I was that great of a daughter. My kids, when they see me struggle, will do something to help me feel better. Sometimes it brings me a marshmallow. I love marshmallows.
Just those little acts make me feel like I am not screwing this up, also. You are creating human beings who are good people. You are getting to see the benefit of that through working, which is ironic in some way because even when you decided, “Yes, I have always wanted to be a mom,” and you loved being an appellate lawyer, did you ever visualize how those two lives would work out together?
I naively thought, which I am sure all of us did, “Appellate law will be great because it seems relaxed, like I will not have depositions and trials, and I will be able to have my own schedule. This will be great for being a mom.” That is not what happened. At least in my practice, it is very demanding, and there is I often find myself constantly bogged down in work but grateful to be.
At the same time, you are right that if we just set up a plan, we do the best we can, and then things always move. Change always happens, shifts always happen, and I have learned through being a mother, through the changes that come with being a mother, the obstacles, the challenges, the things that hit you from the side, that you just have to roll with it and adjust.
Sometimes you need to take a step back, sometimes you need to make some changes to get back to where your heart is telling you to be, and I have definitely had that. I have definitely had moments where I have gone too hard, I think as a lawyer, and looked over and noticed that my kids were struggling in some way, and thought, “I got to reset.”
Every mother faces that regardless of your role or your job. As a lawyer mom, we are problem solvers. Once you awaken to the fact that your child is that person who needs you right now, don’t you feel like when you go into go mode for either a case or your child’s needs, it is like you are in. You will use all your amazing talents and smarts as a lawyer and apply those to your mothering. I can see you being in that realm and unstoppable.
Back when I had maternity leave, which was just for my first two kids, I took off a couple months, whatever it was, two months, three months. I remember thinking during that time, when I really put work aside, I do not get anything done. If I went to the store, that was a miracle. I look at my schedule when I would go back to work and how you can juggle and how you can prioritize, and it is like, “I would go to the store before anybody got up and then would go to work and then would take them all to different things.” There is that old saying if you need to get something done, ask a busy person or something like that.
We are the best. I am the same way. It is like I had dinner at 6:00, and I got so upset in COVID when the stores did not open until 7:00. I am like, “Are you kidding me?” I cannot function, and I have so much to do before that time. Yes, I think you are right, and I think that is the joy of having a job that forces you to be uber organized.
How To Discuss Uncomfortable Topics With Your Children
You can do more, and there is a thrill to it, also to be able to do more, which I think I love. When it comes to your children, and I do want to just talk through the hard thing with respect to some of the cases that you have worked on, because this is very near and dear to my heart, talking to our kids about how to manage when they are in a situation they are uncomfortable with.
As someone who has walked through these cases, what should we be telling our kids? Maybe what do you tell your kids? We are not trying to boss anyone around, but just what is a meaningful way to protect our kids in the face of being in an uncomfortable situation with an adult? If sexual abuse has happened, is there any way to approach those conversations about safety or vulnerability or any of that that you would share?
I will preface it by saying, obviously, I am not a doctor of any sort, so I have no idea if what I am doing is correct.
Always what worked for you.
What works for me is, as I said, I am really honest with my kids. I have told them at a very young age what I do. Obviously, in the age-appropriate way, but what sexual abuse is and what the case is if I have cases about teachers abusing children or church leaders abusing children, what that looks like, and how it starts. I remember having those conversations when my kids were five and three, and I guess what I would say and what I did say, “Trust your gut, trust if you have some feeling about someone, come tell me.”
I always tell them, “There are no secrets. If somebody has a secret with you, you share it with Dad or me. Nothing bad will happen.” Oftentimes, in the cases we influence, a person who is doing this will have over the child is to manipulate the child, groom the child to think we have this special bond, you cannot tell anybody, or it will be ruined, or there are outright threats. If you tell someone, this will happen to your family.
I always blunt that and say, “If anyone ever says that, that is not true, that is not going to happen. I am always here. I am always on your side. We will always talk about it.” I always say, “Do not be alone with a teacher or a person in an authority position. Always surround yourself with others.” The biggest thing I have taught my kids or have tried to teach the kids is from my experience, and what I have seen, it seems like the most vulnerable kids are the ones who are preyed upon. It seems like maybe some who are not around their parents or who are shy, and in situations where they are already struggling.
The most vulnerable kids are the ones who are preyed upon. Share on XOne of the things I will say is, “Do you notice anybody struggling? Do you notice anybody who maybe is spending a lot of time with somebody, and maybe you can join them or befriend them or be there for them?” Just to have children be aware of what is okay and what is support and what is maybe not, and again, trusting that feeling of something does not feel right, I am getting a weird vibe from someone, let’s talk about it. Maybe it is nothing, but let us make it normal to talk about, and I will check in with them.
How Holly Gave Birth To A Very Special Daughter
I love that, especially, teaching your kids to be aware of others who might be in those situations, even if they have not experienced something of that nature. That is really empowering. When it comes to the arrival of your kids, I know you shared, and I love you to share if you are comfortable about having a very special daughter who is a spark in the world. I loved your sharing about her arrival, and if you would share with the audience what that felt like, how you managed it, and what it looks like now.
My daughter Winter, who is my third. I have two older boys, and when she was born, I did all the tests, did all the things, everything came back healthy baby, no issues. When she was born, she had a lot of health complications right away, and within a couple of days, we had heard the doctors mention that she might have Down syndrome. I had tested negative, and this was not something that we had even seen, so it was really a blindside of that diagnosis, potential diagnosis.
At the same time, she was having to go through surgery for something else. The test to determine whether someone has Down syndrome takes ten days at the time. They did the test, and then she had this surgery, and it was the processing of all of that information, and she was in the NICU. I credit my husband, who has been my rock and is just a very mellow, sweet guy who just always knows that everything will be okay. He was like, “We’ve got to get through this, and then we will get through that.”
We need those people. That is exactly the kind of people that we need.
I can be very much. What was really powerful about her arrival was from the beginning it taught me to release my own expectations of who I thought my daughter was going to be, who I anticipated that she would be like and the things she would do and we would do this and that and just let the experience live in the experience and not by my expectation of what it would be. It was really a grieving process, I think of grieving what I thought I had expected or anticipated.
Once I moved through that, it was like a door opened, and it is, “This is so powerful.” She has brought a presence and a change to our lives that I feel like we are all better people because of it, and we are a family that can look at the world differently because of her presence and because she does not fit the mold. She does not fit what society says is this or that, or this and reshaping how we value each other, what we see in each other, it has really been a magical ride.
I have the chills, and I just love the way you light up when you talk about her. It is special for sure. I am crying now, but that is so powerful. It is such a powerful message, and even as we look at our kids and they all come with different ways about them and expectations, managing all of that and seeing the magic, which I loved in what you just said, is part of motherhood and being able to see the magic in these humans.
I remember the first day of school, when someone was sick from school, I was like, “What am I supposed to do? I have to work.” I was like, “I have to adjust.” When you experience something so powerful as what you just described, and you can see the benefit and the light that it has brought into your family, you are such an incredible example of what we should all be aspiring to. I am so grateful for you sharing that.
Why Children Always See The World In A Better Way
When you walk through those experiences, and you are looking at what we have been talking about, what we wish we knew a little bit, looking back. As you even held your son fifteen years ago and were mesmerized by how this is all going to work out, what do you wish you knew? Is there anything that you look back on going, “This would have been a lot easier if I had known these things or how to approach these things differently?”
It is the trusting of the twists and the turns that they are there to teach bigger lessons and make life better than you think it already is. With my son, as I think most moms do with their firstborn, I try to do everything right. “I’ve got to get him in this. I got to do this. We got to do early development for this,” all these things.
Parents must learn to stop injecting their fears or anticipations into their children. Let them experience the world with beautiful people. Share on XAs my second son came and my daughter, it is like you adapt, you see, like you said, how they show up, what they like, how they encounter the world. I think by me shedding what I think this child needs to have or be equipped with, or needs to have this certain preschool, this certain play date. They will show up in a way to tell you. You will see. As long as you can listen, hear, and know where it is going.
I remember this one incident with my middle son, and my daughter Winter had just been born, and we were going to an event within the Down syndrome community. My middle son was like three. I said, “We are going to this picnic.” I wanted to preface him, I wanted to let him know what it would be like, and I thought I was helping him by saying, “There are going to be others that are there that are different, and like Winter is different, and they might look a certain way or talk a certain way that is funny or different to you. Do not stare, do not do this.”
I was giving this little speech, and he looked at me, and he was like, “Different, like how Winter does not like spicy food or she does not like being hot or these things that had nothing to do with her Down syndrome.” I realized in that moment, “I am doing this all wrong. I am basically teaching him that people are different and that I am teaching him a way of looking at people that is othering of that.”
I realized, “He is a child, he does not see any of this. He does not approach the world that way.” I realized, “I need to back up, and I need to get out of this. I need to stop injecting my own fears or anticipations of what his conduct is going to be like at this thing and just let him be him and experience the world with these beautiful people.” Like that, it is a moment where you realize I have done wrong or I screwed up in this parenting moment, and then you realize, “Now I know better and now it will be better moving forward.”
Actually, your son taught you something in that moment, which is the way I see the story. We are trying to protect him and all the other kids and make sure that everyone is not uncomfortable, but he zoomed in and was like, “What?” That’s the thing, all the parenting you did for that moment led him to that recognition. I love that. That’s why kids are the greatest ever, because they see the world in my view in a better way. You’re right in being an adult and instructing and making sure that, from a great perspective, because you want everyone to be comfortable. He was like, “I get it, spicy food. Fine.”
There is a lot to learn from them.
Answering Rapid-Fire Questions And Closing Words
I have a couple of rapid-fire questions just to zone in on. Is there one of your favorite mom mantras that you use at home? A one-liner reset.
During COVID, one of my son’s teachers did this thing where she goes we just roll with it and she had this whole little thing. “Whatever the new thing is with COVID, we are just rolling with it,” I say that a lot. We just roll with it.
What about a lawyer phrase that you might use at home or at work?
I definitely get into debates. I definitely say there is no evidence to support it. There is nothing in support of what you are saying. “How do you back it up?”
How does that come in, especially with teenagers? I feel like, how is your teenage mom vibe going? Especially in the appellate world, in the realm of litigation, is that helping you? Any tips about how to use that? I like the no evidence to support, but any other aspects of that that impact your conversations.
I have lucked out. My oldest is very sweet and thoughtful, but he will put up a fight, and I tell him, “You should be a lawyer.” We will debate something, and usually I get so fatigued I am like, “Whatever. Just do whatever you know is fine.” They both, as teenagers, definitely have a voice. They definitely understand how to use it and to go toe-to-toe if there is something that they want or a change or to tell us.
One of the things I really think, which again is probably a reflection of their sister and our family at this point, is the compassion for the other side. In all of our disagreements, it is like, “Do you see why I would not want you to have a TV in your room?” or “Do you see why I do not think it is a good idea for you?” We do a lot of that in the discussions.
Mothers must know how to trust themselves. You have everything within you that you need. You just need to trust your instinct. Share on XWhen your kids look back on their upbringing, what do you hope they remember about you and how you lived and how you worked?
I want them to remember or see the passion that if I was away from them, it was because I was doing something that I love and that I believe helped someone. I want them to feel like I was not just at a 9:00 to 5:00 doing something just because, or out getting my nails done, it was because I was really trying to make an impact with the skills that I have. I want them to feel encouraged to do the same.
I feel like I can definitely talk to you all day. You are winning as a mom and as an attorney, and the time that you give us, I’m so grateful for. You truly represent the best of the best on both ends. I’m grateful that you took the time to speak with us. I am happy to give you the floor. Is there any bits of advice to share, because I just think you really are the level of heart, vision, and passion. It’s coming through very clearly. I’m so happy that the audience gets the benefit of getting to know you in this way. Thank you so much.
I really appreciate it. I love talking to you. My bit of advice is for moms to trust themselves. You’ve got everything within you that you need. You can do it and just trust your instincts.
Thank you so much, and we are looking forward to hearing from you. We’d love to have you back anytime. Thanks, Holly, for being willing to participate in the show.
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Holly, thank you so much for your honesty, your insights, and your wisdom. These are the conversations that remind us that we are not alone in trying to build full, meaningful lives, not just impressive resumes. To everyone listening, if this episode resonated with you, please share it with fellow lawyer moms who need to hear it. Remember, you do not need permission to design a life that works for you. Until next time, keep showing up. We are happy to have you join us.
Important Links
About Holly Boyer
Holly Boyer is a seasoned appellate attorney, certified specialist in appellate law, and partner at the boutique firm Esner Chang, Boyer & Murphy, where she represents victims in complex cases and assists trial lawyers with critical dispositive and post-judgment motions.
With more than two decades of legal experience, Holly has distinguished herself in the plaintiff’s bar—specializing in cases involving sexual abuse, shaping legislation, and even testifying before the California State Legislature on significant legal reforms. Her legal excellence has been recognized with numerous honors, including the Robert E. Cartwright, Sr. Award from the Consumer Attorneys of California, Appellate Attorney of the Year by the Consumer Attorneys Association of Los Angeles, and repeated rankings among Southern California’s Top 100 Lawyers and Top 50 Women Attorneys.
A graduate of Southwestern University School of Law, Holly’s legal background includes distinguished work in oral advocacy and persuasive legal writing—skills she continues to bring to every facet of her practice.
Beyond her formidable legal career, Holly is also a proud mom of three—a role that deeply shapes her perspective on advocacy, balance, resilience, and purpose. On this episode of The Mothers in Law Podcast, she shares how motherhood influences her professional drive, the lessons learned navigating a high-stakes legal world while raising a family, and why fighting for justice and dignity both in and out of the courtroom matters now more than ever.
